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Woman Shows Herself Dressing Like Celebrities To Show That You Don’t Have To Be Skinny To Look Good
New Yorker Katie Sturino firmly believes that great style can happen at any size. After 10 years of working in PR, she started a blog called the12ish style to introduce girls like her to more size-inclusive fashion and to share her tips and tricks on how to get dressed while being plus.
Katie's blog and Instagram quickly gained thousands of followers as people began to relate to her body-positive message. Finally, here was a happy, healthy woman for whom gaining some weight was not the end of the world. “When I was married, I was very concerned about my body. I was obsessed with maintaining a size 12, or staying close to it,” she wrote in Glamor.
“Then, about three years ago, I got separated and I gained a bunch of weight. At first, I didn’t even realize I was putting it on. I was working out, but it just kept happening. In total, I ended up gaining about 60 pounds. I became a size 16, which I still am, and a surprising thing happened—I really loved my body.”
Katie now runs the beauty brand Megababe on top of her blog, and also finds the time to have a little fun recreating celebrity outfits on Instagram. Scroll down to check out a few of our favorites, and let us know what you think in the comments!
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Jennifer Garner
Meghan Markle
Chrissy Teigen
Blair Eadie
Blair Eadie
Emma Roberts
Kate Moss
Constance Wu
Prince Harry And Meghan Markle
Busy Philipps
Meghan Markle
Natalia Vodianova
Reese Witherspoon
Meghan Markle
Blair Eadie
From personal experience, the one piece/pants thing looks pretty awful from behind on anyone over about 90 pounds (similar looks, sans prints, were in in the 70s/80s.)
Katie Holmes
Sorry can’t see spending allll that money for holes in my pants. Though the outfit is cute.
John Legend And Chrissy Teigen
Chrissy Teigen
Meghan Markle
Jessica Biel
Jennifer Aniston
Kate Middleton
Maybe it's the angle of the photo, but it looks like Kate hasn't seen a decent meal in a while.
It's definitely a bad angle. She's sort of hunched over, and it makes her look frail. She is thin, but not THAT thin. It is also possible that this was taken while pregnant with one of her babies. HG is brutal (although I seem to recall no public engagements until she was feeling better about midway through each pregnancy).
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Totally loving the shoes on them both- I know that's not what we are here for, but still- love them!
Thinking the sandals are all wrong, but I HATE all shoes with a plateau that is all straight (don't know what it's called in English) so I might be making a personal remark. Actually know for sure that that type of fabric\dress\print looks good on plus size just need to tie it right and get the right sandal
They're called Wedge Espadrilles sandals, and I do not like them either.
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This makes Kate look anorexic when in a photo with her. As for the clothes, i hate them the same or like them the same regardless who wears it.
I hate that Little House on the Prairie styles, horrible fabrics with no silhouette defined
My first though was Kate looks a little ill. I’d guess this was taken during her bad morning sickness, but before a pregnancy was announced. She’s trying to push through, but is losing weight because she can’t eat.
The lady on the right looks so nice that she makes the skinny women look too thin.
Meghan Markle
Fugly dress regardless of who wears it. Markle has never had much of a waistline though and a dress like this emphasises that.
Prince Harry And Meghan Markle
Kate Middleton
Alexa Chung
Victoria Beckham
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's not really the same look though, is it -- only the colors are comparable.
Gigi Hadid And Isabella Khair Hadid
Note: this post originally had 93 images. It’s been shortened to the top 30 images based on user votes.
I don't believe size of the fashionista matters, the quality of the outfits and wearing the right size however....that's the difference.
We get it, it's ok to be fat and love yourself, you don't have to post every day about it BP.
You're not even in the same zip code of "getting it"
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"Woman Recreates Celebrity Looks To Prove That Style Is Not Dependent On Size". Yeah, that kind of failed. She looks good, but the styles really do work a lot better on the women on the left.
I don't agree about all the styles. Sometimes an outfit works better if it has some shape to it.
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A pretty woman wears the same clothes as other pretty women. And then what?
Cool concept, but all it did was create an environment where everyone was pitting two women against each other. *Who wore it better?* and everyone analyzed which woman "wins." Not a fan of that pervasive mentality.
If this article had been "Woman Shows Herself Dressing Like Celebrities To Show That You Don’t Have To Be RICH To Look Good" I would've related better
Just google it, there are tons of articles like that. If you didn’t like this one or relate to it, then it’s not for you.
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The "fat acceptance" movement: A: I wish I was beautiful. B: have you tried losing a few pounds? A (small voice): I can't... I'm a helpless victim of my genes and the food corporations... B: so what are you going to do? A (Shouting): I'm going to FORCE millions of people to THINK and SAY I am beautiful anyway! B: good luck.
The "fat shaming" movement: A: I wish people would stop criticizing me for the way I look when I'm trying hard. B: YeAh YoU'rE fAt AnD i CaN't AcCePt ThAt! A (small voice): I'm sorry I'm trying as hard as I can and I don't want to starve myself... B: So what are you going to do? A (shouting): I'm going to help people like me so that we aren't forced to hate ourselves! B: Good luck!
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Point? Proven. Now, finding the same outfits in your size? That's a quest.....
You don’t have to be skinny to look good, sure. But you have to look good to look good. Put effort in it, have a sense of style, good genetics, good posture.
not necessarily. it's not all about looking pretty. it's about looking good on the inside and outside which u seem to not understand, but ur probably just like all those other snotty people imao
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I think she looks great! I also think a lot of that goes towards being confident in yourself. Even someone thin can have a hard time pulling off a look if they aren't confident about it.
The point is not that's not possible to be stylish if you're fat, the point is that if you're fat you can't find stylish clothes at an affordable price.
I'd just like to remind everyone: 𝐈𝐭 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐭𝐫𝐮𝐞 𝐞𝐦𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐢𝐟 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐩 𝐨𝐧 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐨𝐧𝐞, 𝐢𝐧 𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐮𝐩𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐞𝐥𝐬𝐞. I'm not saying that this article or photoshoot is stepping on others. The photoshoot's concept itself is empowering. Congrats to the creators of this. I only meant the way that people are reacting to this, a lot of them are saying how "one of the women wore that outfit better than the other one". On one hand, they might just mean it based on overall features of both women, like face, height, etc, not necessarily size. But on other hand, not everyone would up-vote if someone commented "the skinnier woman wore it better than thicker lady". The point here is, to only show that regardless of your size, you can be good looking. Not that body shaming should switch categories from "fat" to "skinny" shaming.
You have to be neither skinny nor thick to look good. You just need to be rich. Or have the ability of creating "diy" replicas of the "pricey but good looking" clothes, footwear, accessories, etc.
Katie is well-proportioned and has a polished look. She looks great in many of these fashions. How she found them, however, in plus sizes, is beyond me. Larger clothes are often badly made out of unattractive fabrics. The red plaid skirt Katie wore was dreadful.
As a bigger person myself, I'm not keen on wearing crop tops and rompers. I personally feel they look better on thinner people but if you're comfortable wearing those things good on you.
So many of these are just meh, and then some are definitely not flattering. But there were a ton of them that were just ugly to begin with. haha But in all honesty, the basis of this is sort of silly, anyone can wear anything. Doesn't mean they should!
Just because you think mean thoughts doesn't mean anyone asked you to share.
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She looks even better than the celebrities in some of the pictures. However, she also has a lot of personality and a very pretty face. So, that comes in handy as well.
I loved all of these pictures keep doing what you love and keep up the great work:)
all look fantastic! in many cases she looks better than the original model!
I love these. As a person who struggles to find clothes that are cut to body shape, sometimes designers make the garments like big sacks that just cover, not accentuate. The effect is often shapeless. I like how she mimics, but also highlights her curvy figure. Well done.
This totally inspired me to look and feel like me and I'm 13! My family's history has natural fat and inherited it at first I didn't think I was pretty nor sexy enough to be friends like that. But I do have friends who likes me for who I am. And yes they are hot and sexy so.
Fit makes all the difference. You can tell which outfits she's had altered to fit better and the ones she hasn't. There was so much I thought was wrong about my body until I started sewing for myself. It sounds like such an excuse at the store to say you're in between sizes or something like that but I literally am. And so are lots of other people. It's really worth it to get to know your local seamstress/tailor and have things altered for the best fit.
I just think she is great. Showing bigger girls they can be stylish too. Lord knows I just want to hide in a muu muu. It's refreshing to see how to look nice with the side by side pics. I don't really see why this has to start fights between different sized women. I don't see where the posts are diminishing either sizes they both look good.
#26 Is an hot mess. Her shirt is on sideways or backwards, the seam is running down the front, and her top is all wrong, and the button alignment is askew. She does not know how to dress her chest, a common problem for large chested women, the balance between modest and frumpy.
She looks gorgeous! Her beauty and confidence are evident...great inspiration!
Many of your comments are exactly why I grew up wishing I I could be a boy and not a girl. Shame on you.
Wow you really look great, definitely shows size doesn't matter if you put the right pieces together
To be honest, I think she looks better than most of the celebs in these outfits. I find as I age that the celebs look way too skinny, downright gaunt. Katie looks stunning in all the outfits.
Bored Panda? No, GENIUS Panda! I absolutely loved and needed this. 45yrs old and I still don't feel comfortable in my skin. This inspired me. Thank you ❣️
Great job. You've inspired me to go through my closet and put some combos together. What Fun.
The most fashionable thing in the whole article is the baby blue shoe laces. Victoria Beckham is ALWAYS posh. And in some she looked better, in some the "original model" looked better. Most however are not very attractive attire though. It's like flip flopping between over worked business woman, inappropriately denimed sunday walker, or summer granny....
She really excels in this copy-carbon clothes!....She looks so elegant and chic ...hats off
if you thought the name of the article was dumb then why read it and look at the pictures all so you can post something you don't like about it.
tbh, all the people that are saying: "Oh, she should know what to wear. Fat people can't wear that!" Why do u have a say in what she wears? At least she's confident and loves her body like u probably don't. Don't be coming for her like that when all she's tryna do is feel good about herself. Y'all are bullies and that's all you'll ever be in life. U should be ashamed of yourself.
Majority of people here are only saying how all people in general only need a fashion sense to appear good looking, not necessarily "only fat people" or "only skinny people". And a lot of people are also forgetting that putting a picture of thicker woman and saying she rocks an outfit better than a skinnier woman isn't body empowering. It's the same as saying "this skinny woman wore it better than that thicker lady". It isn't empowerment if someone is being stepped on to empower someone else.
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From when being fat is not considered fat & suddenly linked with beauty & stuff is it a American thing or what?
1st : shes not fat, shes busty.. 2nd : shes pretty.. 3rd : is anorexic skinny still a thing?, that celebrities isnt skinny..
I am so glad I saw this. It is true IzzieM. Correct size and quality! This inspired me to try again. After hitting menopause I went from a curvy flat belly size 10 to a 12-14 with a belly and bit around the hips. And I love fashion. Thanks :)
This kind of thing often strikes me as wishful thinking, but this woman often outshines the skinny celebrities.
I just chuckle now because I don't believe this type of thing is done for any reason other than clickbait, at least in so far as it being on BP. The comments of outrage are always the same (BP loves to post the same thing over and over and this + Vaxx are the two most frequent posts). I'm not falling for it again. Fool me once, fool me 36 times, but now it's shame on me time.
The title should say "you don't have to be healthy to wear nice clothes". You don't. But it shure helps. Stay healthy people. Stay in shape.
"Woman Tries to Show That Style Can Be Achieved by Anyone" doesn't have to devolve into making arguments to support your preference. Stop with the "Oh, I'm just oh-so-worried about their extra weight!" and the "She looks like she hasn't had a good meal lately!" comments; do you *honestly* believe that nobody can see through them for what they really mean? People need to be taught from a young age how to eat in a healthy way, because changing that when you are older is extremely difficult due to having to learn an entirely new lifestyle. And it IS a lifestyle when you are an adult! Learning to look at food in a whole new way, trying to convince yourself to make exercise a larger part of your life, not succumbing to the temptation and perceived cheapness of foods that are all around you: that's a LOT to deal with! Growing up already doing this is invaluable, but we don't get to choose our parents, and can't change what they do or how they raise us. So maybe just try to be kinder.
she looks good to herself and for some people but for majority the "skinny" option looks better. Bp_5e876d_...5468d9.jpg 
This is nice, but honestly, I've never loved the fashion of all now-a-day celebrities, so I'm not a fan of the outfits. But you still look beautiful, even if I'm not a fan of the clothing. This is just my opinion.
Are you kidding? She looks worse IN EVERY PHOTO. Be fat all you want, but stop this c**p trying to convince anyone it looks good. It does not. We are not all perfect in every way, and that is ok.
Well, i prefer women on left, some of them are really skinny and i'm not into that, but they all to me look much better than the one on right, not just how the dresses look on them, but in my opinion how their face looks, slimmer people, girls and guys tend to have prettier face cos it is not puffy and bolted. Cheers
Ah, ladies, "size matters" counts for you, too. Clothes can hide being oversized only just a bit.
I'm also curvy. (Little less than the model, but still) so yes, curvy ladies can be trendy, chic & feminine. But let's be honest. Everything looks better on a lean woman.
Finding your own style is the real trick. Not copying what someone else wore in a different size.
The names of Meghan and Kate are not Middleton and Markle - they got married and most definitely took their husbands names. If you want to be informal they are Kate Cambridge and Meghan Sussex. No need to copy the Daily Mail in their irritating inaccuracies.
I agree the standard should be healthy= pretty. It used to be anorexia = pretty but now it's gone to the other extreme of obesity = pretty.
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Also - I'll just wait here until some idiot attacks what I "must" look like because he's incapable of having an intelligent conversation with a woman.
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I don't believe size of the fashionista matters, the quality of the outfits and wearing the right size however....that's the difference.
We get it, it's ok to be fat and love yourself, you don't have to post every day about it BP.
You're not even in the same zip code of "getting it"
Load More Replies... "Woman Recreates Celebrity Looks To Prove That Style Is Not Dependent On Size". Yeah, that kind of failed. She looks good, but the styles really do work a lot better on the women on the left.
I don't agree about all the styles. Sometimes an outfit works better if it has some shape to it.
Load More Replies... A pretty woman wears the same clothes as other pretty women. And then what?
Cool concept, but all it did was create an environment where everyone was pitting two women against each other. *Who wore it better?* and everyone analyzed which woman "wins." Not a fan of that pervasive mentality.
If this article had been "Woman Shows Herself Dressing Like Celebrities To Show That You Don’t Have To Be RICH To Look Good" I would've related better
Just google it, there are tons of articles like that. If you didn’t like this one or relate to it, then it’s not for you.
Load More Replies... The "fat acceptance" movement: A: I wish I was beautiful. B: have you tried losing a few pounds? A (small voice): I can't... I'm a helpless victim of my genes and the food corporations... B: so what are you going to do? A (Shouting): I'm going to FORCE millions of people to THINK and SAY I am beautiful anyway! B: good luck.
The "fat shaming" movement: A: I wish people would stop criticizing me for the way I look when I'm trying hard. B: YeAh YoU'rE fAt AnD i CaN't AcCePt ThAt! A (small voice): I'm sorry I'm trying as hard as I can and I don't want to starve myself... B: So what are you going to do? A (shouting): I'm going to help people like me so that we aren't forced to hate ourselves! B: Good luck!
Load More Replies... Point? Proven. Now, finding the same outfits in your size? That's a quest.....
You don’t have to be skinny to look good, sure. But you have to look good to look good. Put effort in it, have a sense of style, good genetics, good posture.
not necessarily. it's not all about looking pretty. it's about looking good on the inside and outside which u seem to not understand, but ur probably just like all those other snotty people imao
Load More Replies... I think she looks great! I also think a lot of that goes towards being confident in yourself. Even someone thin can have a hard time pulling off a look if they aren't confident about it.
The point is not that's not possible to be stylish if you're fat, the point is that if you're fat you can't find stylish clothes at an affordable price.
I'd just like to remind everyone: 𝐈𝐭 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐭𝐫𝐮𝐞 𝐞𝐦𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐢𝐟 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐧𝐞𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐩 𝐨𝐧 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐨𝐧𝐞, 𝐢𝐧 𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐮𝐩𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐞𝐥𝐬𝐞. I'm not saying that this article or photoshoot is stepping on others. The photoshoot's concept itself is empowering. Congrats to the creators of this. I only meant the way that people are reacting to this, a lot of them are saying how "one of the women wore that outfit better than the other one". On one hand, they might just mean it based on overall features of both women, like face, height, etc, not necessarily size. But on other hand, not everyone would up-vote if someone commented "the skinnier woman wore it better than thicker lady". The point here is, to only show that regardless of your size, you can be good looking. Not that body shaming should switch categories from "fat" to "skinny" shaming.
You have to be neither skinny nor thick to look good. You just need to be rich. Or have the ability of creating "diy" replicas of the "pricey but good looking" clothes, footwear, accessories, etc.
Katie is well-proportioned and has a polished look. She looks great in many of these fashions. How she found them, however, in plus sizes, is beyond me. Larger clothes are often badly made out of unattractive fabrics. The red plaid skirt Katie wore was dreadful.
As a bigger person myself, I'm not keen on wearing crop tops and rompers. I personally feel they look better on thinner people but if you're comfortable wearing those things good on you.
So many of these are just meh, and then some are definitely not flattering. But there were a ton of them that were just ugly to begin with. haha But in all honesty, the basis of this is sort of silly, anyone can wear anything. Doesn't mean they should!
Just because you think mean thoughts doesn't mean anyone asked you to share.
Load More Replies... She looks even better than the celebrities in some of the pictures. However, she also has a lot of personality and a very pretty face. So, that comes in handy as well.
I loved all of these pictures keep doing what you love and keep up the great work:)
all look fantastic! in many cases she looks better than the original model!
I love these. As a person who struggles to find clothes that are cut to body shape, sometimes designers make the garments like big sacks that just cover, not accentuate. The effect is often shapeless. I like how she mimics, but also highlights her curvy figure. Well done.
This totally inspired me to look and feel like me and I'm 13! My family's history has natural fat and inherited it at first I didn't think I was pretty nor sexy enough to be friends like that. But I do have friends who likes me for who I am. And yes they are hot and sexy so.
Fit makes all the difference. You can tell which outfits she's had altered to fit better and the ones she hasn't. There was so much I thought was wrong about my body until I started sewing for myself. It sounds like such an excuse at the store to say you're in between sizes or something like that but I literally am. And so are lots of other people. It's really worth it to get to know your local seamstress/tailor and have things altered for the best fit.
I just think she is great. Showing bigger girls they can be stylish too. Lord knows I just want to hide in a muu muu. It's refreshing to see how to look nice with the side by side pics. I don't really see why this has to start fights between different sized women. I don't see where the posts are diminishing either sizes they both look good.
#26 Is an hot mess. Her shirt is on sideways or backwards, the seam is running down the front, and her top is all wrong, and the button alignment is askew. She does not know how to dress her chest, a common problem for large chested women, the balance between modest and frumpy.
She looks gorgeous! Her beauty and confidence are evident...great inspiration!
Many of your comments are exactly why I grew up wishing I I could be a boy and not a girl. Shame on you.
Wow you really look great, definitely shows size doesn't matter if you put the right pieces together
To be honest, I think she looks better than most of the celebs in these outfits. I find as I age that the celebs look way too skinny, downright gaunt. Katie looks stunning in all the outfits.
Bored Panda? No, GENIUS Panda! I absolutely loved and needed this. 45yrs old and I still don't feel comfortable in my skin. This inspired me. Thank you ❣️
Great job. You've inspired me to go through my closet and put some combos together. What Fun.
The most fashionable thing in the whole article is the baby blue shoe laces. Victoria Beckham is ALWAYS posh. And in some she looked better, in some the "original model" looked better. Most however are not very attractive attire though. It's like flip flopping between over worked business woman, inappropriately denimed sunday walker, or summer granny....
She really excels in this copy-carbon clothes!....She looks so elegant and chic ...hats off
if you thought the name of the article was dumb then why read it and look at the pictures all so you can post something you don't like about it.
tbh, all the people that are saying: "Oh, she should know what to wear. Fat people can't wear that!" Why do u have a say in what she wears? At least she's confident and loves her body like u probably don't. Don't be coming for her like that when all she's tryna do is feel good about herself. Y'all are bullies and that's all you'll ever be in life. U should be ashamed of yourself.
Majority of people here are only saying how all people in general only need a fashion sense to appear good looking, not necessarily "only fat people" or "only skinny people". And a lot of people are also forgetting that putting a picture of thicker woman and saying she rocks an outfit better than a skinnier woman isn't body empowering. It's the same as saying "this skinny woman wore it better than that thicker lady". It isn't empowerment if someone is being stepped on to empower someone else.
Load More Replies... From when being fat is not considered fat & suddenly linked with beauty & stuff is it a American thing or what?
1st : shes not fat, shes busty.. 2nd : shes pretty.. 3rd : is anorexic skinny still a thing?, that celebrities isnt skinny..
I am so glad I saw this. It is true IzzieM. Correct size and quality! This inspired me to try again. After hitting menopause I went from a curvy flat belly size 10 to a 12-14 with a belly and bit around the hips. And I love fashion. Thanks :)
This kind of thing often strikes me as wishful thinking, but this woman often outshines the skinny celebrities.
I just chuckle now because I don't believe this type of thing is done for any reason other than clickbait, at least in so far as it being on BP. The comments of outrage are always the same (BP loves to post the same thing over and over and this + Vaxx are the two most frequent posts). I'm not falling for it again. Fool me once, fool me 36 times, but now it's shame on me time.
The title should say "you don't have to be healthy to wear nice clothes". You don't. But it shure helps. Stay healthy people. Stay in shape.
"Woman Tries to Show That Style Can Be Achieved by Anyone" doesn't have to devolve into making arguments to support your preference. Stop with the "Oh, I'm just oh-so-worried about their extra weight!" and the "She looks like she hasn't had a good meal lately!" comments; do you *honestly* believe that nobody can see through them for what they really mean? People need to be taught from a young age how to eat in a healthy way, because changing that when you are older is extremely difficult due to having to learn an entirely new lifestyle. And it IS a lifestyle when you are an adult! Learning to look at food in a whole new way, trying to convince yourself to make exercise a larger part of your life, not succumbing to the temptation and perceived cheapness of foods that are all around you: that's a LOT to deal with! Growing up already doing this is invaluable, but we don't get to choose our parents, and can't change what they do or how they raise us. So maybe just try to be kinder.
she looks good to herself and for some people but for majority the "skinny" option looks better. Bp_5e876d_...5468d9.jpg
This is nice, but honestly, I've never loved the fashion of all now-a-day celebrities, so I'm not a fan of the outfits. But you still look beautiful, even if I'm not a fan of the clothing. This is just my opinion.
Are you kidding? She looks worse IN EVERY PHOTO. Be fat all you want, but stop this c**p trying to convince anyone it looks good. It does not. We are not all perfect in every way, and that is ok.
Well, i prefer women on left, some of them are really skinny and i'm not into that, but they all to me look much better than the one on right, not just how the dresses look on them, but in my opinion how their face looks, slimmer people, girls and guys tend to have prettier face cos it is not puffy and bolted. Cheers
Ah, ladies, "size matters" counts for you, too. Clothes can hide being oversized only just a bit.
I'm also curvy. (Little less than the model, but still) so yes, curvy ladies can be trendy, chic & feminine. But let's be honest. Everything looks better on a lean woman.
Finding your own style is the real trick. Not copying what someone else wore in a different size.
The names of Meghan and Kate are not Middleton and Markle - they got married and most definitely took their husbands names. If you want to be informal they are Kate Cambridge and Meghan Sussex. No need to copy the Daily Mail in their irritating inaccuracies.
I agree the standard should be healthy= pretty. It used to be anorexia = pretty but now it's gone to the other extreme of obesity = pretty.
Load More Replies... Also - I'll just wait here until some idiot attacks what I "must" look like because he's incapable of having an intelligent conversation with a woman.
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