Society functions under the assumption that we’ve all accepted its rules. Money has value because we’ve been told that it does, and we abide by the law to avoid negative consequences. But that doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to question anything. In fact, the only way that progress ever occurs is through speaking up about the flaws in the system.
Reddit users have recently been discussing some of the societal standards they have a problem with, so we’ve gathered their thoughts down below. Enjoy reading through their responses, and be sure to upvote the things you don’t consider to be normal either.
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That people’s feelings are more important than the truth.
That we need to be tolerant of other cultures, religions, ideals, etc. always.
No, there are some objectively terrible beliefs out there that only exist because people insist it’s their culture or any of the above mentioned.
Slavery, child marriage, marriage rape, stoning homosexuals, hating a group of people because you’re supposed to, considering a sector of humanity lesser because they’re not the right color/ gender etc etc etc.
"iT's jUSt mY opiNIoN!" No, it's not just an opinion...basic human rights aren't "opinions".
tipping culture.
You as a employer should pay your employee enough, balancing the cost of your service with his salary.
Men can not be abused. Men can not feel emotion. Men are supposed to slap on some bootstraps or, however, it's called and take it "like a man." Its disgusting.
Be a man. You must be swift as the coursing river
Healthcare being tied to employment. I don't want to be trapped to a job I hate just so I can get my prescriptions. I have enough savings and low cost of living so I could totally do a part time job but no.. 40 hours for insurance.
To expect to know things that are not taught to you growing up. Taxes, laws, basic medical care, even from what cleaning chemicals you can mix to how long food lasts in the fridge. Instead public education is geared towards making sure a students mindset is ready to be another cog in the economic machine.
"Education" today is too focused on passing standardized tests to secure funding for the school, rather than properly educating children and young adults about the world they are about to enter.
The concept that school should educate kids about the world is as unreasonable as expecting that they learn morals from tv shows. The blame if a kid does not know the basic skills to succeed in life is their parents. The blame if an adult does not know them yet is him/herself as they have not taken responsability on their lifes
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Oh, please. I get so tired of hearing this nonsense. Speaking as an American and a teacher: what good would it do? So we teach kids how taxes work - which they’ll doubtless find exciting and totally pay attention to - and how to do their taxes (which we already can do on an app; are we saying people are so stupid they can’t figure out how an app works?) Then we do what for the last 90% of the year? And do we really need kids learning how long food lasts in the fridge at school? Is that really worthwhile? Most of the stuff people whine about schools not teaching can easily be done at home and, quite frankly, SHOULD be taught at home. But, once again, parents have no accountability and we get posts like this that demand schools take up teaching the most mundane things. Tell you what: when Americans start trying - really trying - to do well in school, we can talk. Until then, I’ll assume you’re unserious and just want to bash schools.
Please say this louder so they can hear it in the back! I've been barking about this forever. Parents don't even teach their kids how to tie shoes before packing them off to school and insisting that educators should be responsible for teaching their kids virtually everything. What a waste of life.
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It's a teachers job to teach kids academics. It's a PARENTS job to teach them life skills. All these things OP named should be being taught by parents.
Uh, not exactly. Taxes are covered in economics. Laws are covered in social studies. Medical care is covered in a first aid class. Household chemicals would be covered in chemistry. Food storage would be covered in home economics.
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A lot of this needs to fall on families as well. Why can't parents or grandparents be teaching these basic life skills. "How long food lasts in the fridge" does not need to be covered in school. That is a life skill that can be taught at home. School is not a replacement for basic parenting. And, yes, it is a cog in the economic machine because that is exactly what it was developed to be. To help people during the industrial revolution to be able to have basic reading and writing skills so they can get jobs and not starve to death in a time when that was very much a possibility for a lot of poor, illiterate people. Nowadays "education" seems to have become a catch all for people who don't want to parent their kids. It seems like people would love it If kids could just be dropped off at 5 years old and picked up as fully formed human beings at 18 with no real parental responsibility in between.
Exactly. Families are responsible for the small, everyday circle in life - things relating to the household, routines, chores, politeness, hygiene, good habits. Schools are there to teach those things that are not easily taught at home - big concepts like reading, writing, math, languages, science, history, getting along with diverse people, working in teams, plus concepts you need a lot of people and equipment for, like sports, debate, clubs, CTE, etc.
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Laws, basic medical care, how long food lasts... just how much do you expect schools to teach. Much of this complaint should be taught at home. Another cog in the ecconomic machine... high school will teach sciences and higher level maths, it opens the door to go much further, and many universities literally have degrees in entrepreneurship. We need an entry on this list about blaming society and taking no accountability for ourselves.
But you can teach yourself those things now, what with the internet and all.
Exactly. We can teach you how to learn, including how to vet sources. But you have to have the initiative to look up things that interest you. If you're only watching surfing squirrels and social media challenges, that's on you.
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Well, yes but....be a teacher for a few weeks and get an idea of what you're supposed to cover.. Everything cannot/should not be taught in school. Children used to learn most of these things at home, but now we're into like the 3rd generation of parents who don't know. Cooking meals for example. Far too much reliance on fast food and take-out.
Here's an idea... maybe there are things that are your responsibility to research and find out? Maybe school reports on biology are actually meant to teach you research and critical thinking skills so that you can navigate the process of learning/researching things on your own, not biology? Not to mention all the information is out in the open for you, usually along with toll free telephone numbers to get questions answered.
A lot of things are learned by taking chances, getting messy and making mistakes.
This varies a lot from around the world. We were taught all of these. House economy covers almost everything in here. we have actual kitchens is class where we cook and bake, then there is washing room where the class laundry is washed and ironed. These classes also cover budgeting, shopping and different cleaning practises as well as things like table manners, celebration customs and different food cultures. And lo and behold, it's almost every students' favourite subject as you can do things yourself and there's very little of just sitting and listening.
In Japan, all my elementary students learn to sew by hand and by machine. Learn how to cook, where their food comes from. They learn history at local, national, and international levels. The system isn’t perfect by any means, but the kids leave school ready for life and a career.
A lot of these things are things parents should be teaching. But I've heard they're giving kids in KINDERGARTEN homework! Kids need a lot of time outside of school for play, for socializing, for sleep, and also for chores and learning things they should be learning outside of school. But the schools seem to think kids have 8 hours a day outside of school for homework.
Yes. As an educator, I have to say what they call kindergarten in the US these days is developmentally inappropriate and certainly not what Froebel envisioned. It's basically first or even second grade a year or two too early. Children need to play and develop social skills and threedimensional awareness, not sit still in desks and name letters before they have even developed phonemic awareness yet.
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Perhaps their parents don't know how to do these things. There are several generations where basic skills such as budgeting, cooking and simple repairs are not known.
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I'm sorry, but what this person says schools should teach is stuff I learned from my PARENTS. I'm sure it's hard to find the time to teach your children basic life skills when both parents have to work long hours to afford a roof over their head and food on the table, but this is not something schools can provide.
I agree that we need to spend larger amounts of time teaching basic life skills. Schools used to require home economics and shop for all. Back in the day they were wrong by making home ec for girls and shop for boys. Now that we are supposedly more enlightened, we should do home ec and shop required for all.
Well gosh, what would be left for parents to teach? Schools are for teaching academics. Home is for teaching life skills.
Part of education is learning how to learn, schools are not responsible for teaching everything an adult needs to learn.
A better way is out there and it's called Montessori. Provides an education that values the whole child and grads from Montessori elementary are head and shoulders above their non Montessori peers. No tests either!
Not many parents can afford the price tag of a Montessori school.
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Me: "Please teach me how to fill out a W2 tax form." School: "Shut up and return to your square-dance lessons."
It is the job of the parents to teach basic life skills, they can and do show in practise how all these things work. Lots of parents let their kids participate actively in running the household. But many parents listen rather to the wailing of their kids "booooooorrrriiiinnnnggg" and obey to their refusal to do their share of household chores or listen to advices. However, most of the things are covered at school, but pupils are not interested, because not necessary because pop and mom are doing it, so why should they pay attention? The tasks are divided: School is for getting your certificates to open the road to any job you want, parents do the life skills that let you survive your particular civilization
But at least you know the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell! 😜
Those are all things that parents should teach. School is not a replacement for that.
Omg! So true!! With a California, US education, I knew nothing of real life until I lived it!
Schools are busy teaching racism, social justice, and pseudo scientific beliefs.
A was taught a lot of things like law and taxes in school, students that were in the room with me were not taught those things. It is a lot more difficult to teach kids if they have no use for the information at the time.
To this day, proofs are the bane of my mathematical thinking capacity.
You are born knowing only to eat and poop. You must learn everything else
This information is readily available but you have to put down the game controller to hear it.
There is a vast difference between the education I received up to about 8th grade where standardized tests were first being implemented to gauge school performance and how much funding that school received. There was a more varied pool of knowledge the lessons were drawn from and there were still shop,home ec, typing and accounting classes. We had art,chorus,PE,and drama. There was even more difference between my and my children's education and still more between my son's and daughter's who are seven years apart in age. By the time she was in high school they were taught only what was on the standardized tests and there were so few electives that not all children could take them because the classes filled up so fast. The electives left were one art class, band/marching band and one drama class. You had to start band in 5th grade to still be able to take it in high school. I'm 51, son 30 and daughter 24.
We also need to be taught the true price of things. I am a first year university student and Life is hard. I live in France and my mother don't earn enough so I have money every month from the government, which is nice but clearly not enough. I am learning the true price of things and it's tough : bedsheets, garbage bags, canned food... I haven't eaten meet/eggs/fish in since so much time...
Mass education is and was from the start a tool to help state, not individual.
I believe that every American teenager should take a class in home finance, which should include investments including home ownership, tax preparation, student debt and debt management, utilities management and household safety. (But what cleaning chemicals can you mix? NONE.) This course would help develop skills in math, reading comprehension, writing, economics and civics. In fairness, when I went to buy a home, I was very well impressed by how the government does help first-time homebuyers know what they're doing; my big screwup was waiting too long in the mistaken belief that I needed to save up a ton of money.
It’s about training you. Rewiring your brain to get used to the short breaks in the work day to get back to the grind. Enough time to be tired by the end of the day, not enough time or energy to have your own life. It’s intentional and calculated.
More people need to know the difference between the sell-by date, use-by date and best-before date.
Considering everybody uses tax software in the US to file their taxes it's pointless to teach. It's all done step by step and you enter the dollar value from numbered boxes on the paper you receive in the mail (W2). Even if the software were to disappear they just need to be able to read the form.
There's always been knowledge you don't learn at school or college - it's unreasonable to put all the responsibility on teachers who've more than enough to deal with... If you've no parents or elders to guide you, you have to take responsibility and ask questions and find information for yourself. Using the "I want taught that" excuse all the time just makes you look dumb. Be proactive and take charge of your own knowledge and keep learning... So much easier now with the Internet in your pocket ;-) seriously though, you should never stop learning...
Honestly? For individuals to be their own community. That's why so many people are suffering. We're a social species, we're supposed to help each other, but instead we're all just struggling along because society says it's disgraceful to "be a burden upon others".
Ridiculous. We need more empathy and less ego. More connection, less loneliness.
There is nothing selfish about asking for help and needing to rely on others. Even the hermits and most solitary people benefit with a little interaction with people once in a while, no matter how much they show they hate it. People go absolutely mad when isolated. Doesn't matter how introverted you are.
That it’s acceptable to let someone die if they don’t have the money to pay for care
that being a virgin anytime past like 16 is abnormal
The concept of virginity and purity needs to stop. There is nothing wrong with not being a "virgin" as well as nothing wrong with being one. The whole concept is outdated
As for society in America the expectation for the mother to return to work quickly and have her body "bounce back" ASAP.
Not giving men maternity leave with his new child so he he can bond and help care for it with the mother/other parent
Lack of universal healthcare and also how stigmatized certain mental illnesses are, as if people choose to be sick 🙄
The quest for youthfulness. Growing older is a privilege and I don't understand the hate on wrinkles, grey hair etc. There used to be a saying "grow old gracefully" which implies accepting the changes and making the most out of it.
The commodification of your hobbies. They're about how you spend your leisure time, not another revenue stream
The pressure and scrutiny is real. Anytime I enjoy something and seem to do it well, a family member says I should sell it. Turn it into a business. Business is mainly about the administrative aspects, and you worry a lot more about finances and keeping up demand. But you have to get your start. Just because one or 2 people say they like your work and ask to make stuff for them, doesn't mean they actually want to pay you for it, nor does it mean many other people want your work. I think some people just say they want a piece of your work as a way to show they support your endeavours, but not in a genuine way.
Now with smartphones, assuming that people are available and obligated to respond to you. I sometimes wish we lived in the older times when you had to call someone’s home landline number and leave a message, then wait for them to respond back at their earliest convenience. Now it’s, “I texted you, you didn’t respond, are we still friends, are you mad at me”? Blah blah etc. like no, I simply just didn’t feel like responding. I’m a busy adult, and just because there’s a texting feature on my phone doesn’t mean I’m always willing to engage in conversation with you.
That athletes are paid so much than most people because they provide entertainment and branding.
Thai dowry system. In Thailand, a man is expected to give money to bride’s parents before he marry her. The amount can be a lot.
This puts groom in financial pressure. He could use that money for future child education or taking care of his soon to be wife BUT he has to give them to her parents.
This also treats bride like a commodity, a trade. It devalues women.
This is called sin sod, often confused with a dowry. A dowry is the brides family giving the groom money, livestock etc.
Not going to the hospital because you have no health insurance and would rather die than bankrupt your entire family.
And hope that you have a decent life insurance plan to make sure your family is okay after you die
That a person's worth is tied to their job and economic activity rather than their character.
There are so many people of many different walks in life. People say you should work as a server to understand tipping culture, or work in retail to understand patience and empathy. But try working in a thrift store, or volunteer at a shelter or soup kitchen. You'll realize there's a whole aspect of life you didn't think was there, while meeting people you enjoy talking to but would likely move to another seat if they sat next to you on the bus.
Beauty standards (for men, women, etc)
Human bodies should not be treated or seen as a trend imo
The only time I see people caring about trends is in magazines and online. Sometimes in school. When I'm out and about, I see people with many different looks, wearing all sorts of clothes. No one cares anymore. Anything goes these days. I could wear Victorian era clothing on the bus. I may get some stares. Perhaps someone may strike up a conversation. But no one is going to shame me nor anyone else, because people are too busy on their phones to notice anything anymore.
Work full time, have a perfectly clean house, be fit because you exercise regularly and be the perfect mother and partner on top
Edit to add: have a successful career
That everyone should look like a social media filter.
It feels like every app has filters on it now, some of them automatic, to smooth out your skin, even its color, make your eyes bigger, add makeup, make you look skinnier, make you whatever it is you aren't enough of already to be perfect. And I think it's making us expect people to be essentially CGI versions of people instead of actual people.
I don't use filters, and if I do it's for fun. Since I can't wear makeup much I like seeing what would like good on me. So far, I'm good with my natural looks. But not a lot of people are okay with that, so even on my personal FB account I keep my profile not of me. Jackasses sure like to assume I'm a huge, obese person because of my round, plump face I inherited from my dad. Or criticize my hair. Or just feel the need to randomly say I'm so ugly. I know they're just trolls, jerks and trying to get a rise out of me. Nonetheless, when it's all the time, every time you comment on anything, it gets exhausting and starts affecting you. I believe this is why a lot of people refuse to show their faces.
40 hour work week
But once again this leaves out anyone who does shift work - the medical industry, service jobs, retail, food, etc. Not everyone works happy little office jobs on salary.
Women have to be strong, but not too much, have to have a job and intellectual background, but have to be ready to do the home chores on their own if their partner's job is more "important" than theirs. They have to care about their appearance, but not too much, or they will be considered as attention seekers. They have to be able to smile and talk in public, but not too much. Basically, if you are attractive, people will tend to think you are "only" attractive and not so smart, and even that you got the job because you are pretty, but if you are considered less attractive, you may be categorized as someone whose intelligence and sensibility are not enough...
Double standards between men and women is a real thing
That it's far more important to kill people than to educate them ie, Military spending v Education spending. Why we don't want everyone to be as smart as they can be is a crime against humanity
How brutally sexist family court is against men. It doesn't matter what the mother did, she is almost always going to get the kids, the house, and turn the father into an at will atm. One of my Marine buddie's wife cheated on him while we were deployed. She got pregnant and my friend is on the hook for the kid, even though DNA proved it wasn't his. He was seen as a source of income for a piece of s**t mom by the court. For 18 years this dude has to pay for a kid that isn't even his. Family court is the most distilled form of our societies beliefs about men.
The courts decision has no common sense anywhere in it. Edit: people i talking about THIS specific court 🤷🏽♀️
The idea that body hair isn’t ok on women.
I hate bodyhair on myself as a man, so... it depends on individuals. I think men with bodyhair look like a donut that fell on a barbershop floor. It grosses me out. Especially bears.
The work 9 to 5 for almost all your life.
It's like you have been born to work, pay taxes and consume.
I would love the idea of ONLY 9am to 5pm FIVE Days a week. Instead of in an ever growing majority of jobs 24-7 365. Both are terrible. People are not machines. Billionaires are not normal. 1 Billion Seconds is 31 Years. There needs to be Govt Control in the United States FOR THE WORKERS. THE PEOPLE THAT PRODUCE ACTUAL HOLD ABLE ITEMS AND GOOD!!! CEOS DO NOTHING!!! EAT THE RICH!!!
That corporate profits _need_ to be in the pockets of few, to _safe_ the economy, but losses and crashing corporations are okay to be socialized on the shoulders of the tax payers...also to safe the economy
Corporate welfare is maddening, but society seems to not complain about how much of their tax money goes to those saving graces for rich companies, like they do with people on social assistance. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/governments-in-canada-spent-more-than-350-billion-on-corporate-welfare --- https://www.hoover.org/research/welfare-well-how-business-subsidies-fleece-taxpayers
That student loans are ok. They are everything but ok.
I am less concerned by the loans than I am with the usurious interest charged. My kid pays 12.5% on hers. Stupid old Dad said," you do not need the extra $5K each semester (extra $15k+/yr) but, nooooo.
The expectation of being constantly employed. If you're not producing something then you're worthless.
That we are expected to move out of our parents' home the day we turn 18. With the current COL and entry-level wages, this just isn't possible for most people.
EDIT: I'm referring to the US in this example.
That it is okay to be overweight/obese.
I get what the movement was for, but then it became this entity of encouraging unhealthy weight and succumbing to the weight problem. However, I don't think bullying, shaming, body snarking those who are obese or anorexic is doing anyone any good. Just let people exist, deal with their issues in peace and mind your business.
Being a divorced woman over 35 means I hold absolutely no value and am essentially doomed to die alone.
It doesn't matter I was a loving, devoted wife for 14 years or that he tried to kill me over his drinking and that's why we're divorced. I'm just old and used up...
I couldn't possibly use my education, career and everything I've secured with those to treat the man who shows me kindness and makes me feel safe like a king...
I find icks really stupid and majority of "icks" are everyday things and are completely normal. I've seen videos of icks and it includes people wearing backpacks, people still have a childhood teddy bear, crying or being in love with something. I just think that the standard of icks are stupid
Oh, just a **tiny, unassuming question** to start the day! Well, alright. While the idea of "most" can be a bit subjective because, you know, one person's "f*cked up" can be another's "**Tuesday**," here are a few contenders in the grand pageant of societal standards that might just take the cake:
1. **The Pursuit of Perfection**: Society has this *adorable* little habit of promoting impossible standards of beauty, success, and overall lifestyle. This might not raise any eyebrows until you consider the small, **inconsequential side effect** of causing widespread insecurity, anxiety, and a booming business for therapists and social media influencers. Who doesn't love a standard that creates a perpetual feeling of inadequacy?
2. **The Stigmatization of Mental Health**: Nothing says "progressive society" like still treating mental health issues as a **taboo** or a sign of weakness. It's almost impressive how persistent this standard is, considering the leaps and bounds made in understanding the human brain. It's like society collectively decided that mental health can be swept under the rug with last century's dust.
3. **Work-Life Imbalance**: Ah, the glorification of overworking. Society loves to peddle the narrative that working yourself to the **bone** is the only path to success and fulfillment. Because who needs hobbies, relaxation, or, dare I say, **sleep**, when you can have the joy of chronic stress and burnout?
4. **The "Us vs. Them" Mentality**: Society has a knack for creating divisions among people: race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, **pineapple on pizza**... you name it. It's as if humanity decided that life wasn't challenging enough and opted to add a level of difficulty by fostering unnecessary hatred and prejudice.
5. **Financial Status as a Measure of Worth**: Nothing quite says "f*cked up" like equating a person's value with their bank account. This standard is great because it completely overlooks minor details like **character**, **integrity**, **kindness**, and whether or not someone is a good pet parent.
Of course, there are many more, but then this would turn into a **novel** instead of a light, sarcastic banter. Remember, the beauty of society is that it's made up of individuals, and individuals have the power to challenge and change these standards. Or, at the very least, make snarky comments about them.
In the US, circumcision.
FWIW, I'm circumcised and I'm glad for it. I'm also a guy who shaves down there so I'm not normal I guess.
Western society at any rate, sets the decadence of eating well, eating good, eat often, eat in fancy places, eat ti show off, eat to indulge with fancy restaurants, eateries and expensive tastes....but then betrays people by saying gluttony is wrong, weight gain is wrong (it often isn't good), image is everything and we should look perfect and be in the gym looking like Instagram models...
Sexualising teens. Advertising and normalising the overt sexualisation of kids barely past puberty as if they're fully responsible adults. Neurology has found the brain doesn't mature fully until around 25+ years old. But society scores teenage pregnancy, tells them they don't understand life's complexities and is now saying that if a boy approaches a girl he likes to flirt, it's tantamount to sexual assault...
Basically, modern Western society is the congestive dissonance on a full blown scale...we don't want people to suffer, but we dgaf about homeless, drug addicts or those suffering. We want to appear virtuous and noble, but we're rotten and corrupt to the core...life is one big venetian masked ball of everyone pretending to be something they're not and social media, for good or bad, has amplified that to the nth degree because we can all live make-believe in public and then surrender to our deepest and most lustful desires behind closed doors
Anyone else think the Garage clothing store ads are ... uncomfortably suggestive? Me and my daughter see it all the time in the malls.
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The government not telling us how much taxes we owe. No universal paternity leave for new dads. Rich people are above the law. Encouraging people to work through sickness. Pharmaceuticals can advertise. So much c**p that we have been led to believe is normal that never made any damn sense.
I do wish more people knew this: The government WILL do your taxes for you! If you have significant investments, including a home, you want to do it yourself. But you absolutely can staple your W-2 form (or 1099) to your 1040/1040EZ, and the government will do it FOR you. You probably want to fill in the names and social-security numbers of your kids, to make SURE the government knows you're claiming them. See, people THINK the government won't give them any credits or deductions if they don't know know to claim them, but the truth is that as long as no-one signs that they prepared your taxes FOR you, the government will identify the credits and deductions that they can know about.
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Because it's BP. Even when the topic changes the memes and pics don't.
Load More Replies... The fact that for over 40/50 years we've taught French and Spanish in school and not Sign Language.
More people understand Spanish than sign language. It's more useful.
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Oh yay, the weekly "hard truths" "tough talk" "yawn boring rehashed same nonsense" downvote.
It's super weird to me that people are complaining about athletes being "overpaid" but somehow CEOs didn't make the list. The former offers way more of a unique skillset compared to the other.
So, you're not a fan of schools, roads or fire departments I take it? Where do you think the money for things like that comes from?
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The government not telling us how much taxes we owe. No universal paternity leave for new dads. Rich people are above the law. Encouraging people to work through sickness. Pharmaceuticals can advertise. So much c**p that we have been led to believe is normal that never made any damn sense.
I do wish more people knew this: The government WILL do your taxes for you! If you have significant investments, including a home, you want to do it yourself. But you absolutely can staple your W-2 form (or 1099) to your 1040/1040EZ, and the government will do it FOR you. You probably want to fill in the names and social-security numbers of your kids, to make SURE the government knows you're claiming them. See, people THINK the government won't give them any credits or deductions if they don't know know to claim them, but the truth is that as long as no-one signs that they prepared your taxes FOR you, the government will identify the credits and deductions that they can know about.
Load More Replies... Because it's BP. Even when the topic changes the memes and pics don't.
Load More Replies... The fact that for over 40/50 years we've taught French and Spanish in school and not Sign Language.
More people understand Spanish than sign language. It's more useful.
Load More Replies... Oh yay, the weekly "hard truths" "tough talk" "yawn boring rehashed same nonsense" downvote.
It's super weird to me that people are complaining about athletes being "overpaid" but somehow CEOs didn't make the list. The former offers way more of a unique skillset compared to the other.
So, you're not a fan of schools, roads or fire departments I take it? Where do you think the money for things like that comes from?
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