“It Makes Us Feel Like Creeps”: 25 Men Share Their Issues With Modern Dating
Interview With Expert
The way that dating works seems to change every generation. Gone are the days of asking for a cute stranger's number, calling them up on their landline and asking them to meet you at the local diner for a burger and a milkshake. Nowadays, the dating world is a minefield of apps, sliding into DMs, playing it cool and “talking” for months before officially being in a relationship.
Navigating this rugged terrain isn’t easy for anyone, so men have recently been opening up on Reddit about the most frustrating issues they’ve encountered while trying to date. From misunderstandings to ever-changing preferences from women, we’ve gathered some of their most popular replies below. Enjoy scrolling through, whether you’re still in the dating pool or not, and keep reading to find a conversation with dating and relationships coach Rachel New!
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I went out with a woman a few times and enjoyed her company. She told me she was casually seeing a few guys. So I backed off. That’s not my thing. She later reached out again and expressed that she considered herself “old school” and that I needed to pursue her if I wanted it to happen. I told her that I don’t chase women. Especially one that is not giving me her undivided attention. I’m not going to compete for her affection, I’d rather be alone.
Trust me, men do NOT like it when women (like those your husband is friends with) play “hard to get.” It’s degrading, dehumanizing, and makes us feel like creeps. Women who act this way are really not worth our time and effort, anyway.
A lot of my gal pals are in relationships that they're absolutely miserable in (example: she has to lie to her boyfriend to hang out with literally anyone because "she's bi and she could cheat on him with anyone"), but won't leave because it's "better than nothing and they're waiting for someone better to come along". I almost died from the looks alone when I asked if "someone better" was the type of person who went after a woman in a committed relationship...
As for chasing a woman after she turns me down, absolutely not. You all spent the last 10 years drilling into our heads that No Means No and if you say No that's that.
A woman put it best: "Guys don't want to chase, they want to play Tag. You need to chase them too".
To learn more about the difficulties that men encounter when dating today, we reached out to dating and relationships coach Rachel New, who was kind enough to share her thoughts with Bored Panda.
First, Rachel noted that not knowing what the “rules” are is a common frustration for not only heterosexual men, but heterosexual women as well. "These men complain that they don’t know whether to take it slow (at both the messaging stage and moving the dates along to intimacy) and that women expect them to read their minds," the expert explained.
"And some of these women worry that they will come across as too keen if they want to meet up rather than message a lot, or that the man will think they aren’t interested if they take longer to be ready to meet or don’t want to kiss on a first date," Rachel says.
"Men are also expected to take the initiative to arrange the date, but can be criticized for 'taking over' or being too controlling or assertive," she continued. "And when they arrange the date, often the woman will not like what he has planned, particularly if it involves food."
Girls think that I am supposed to chase them. Jump through hoops to gain their approval. Nope. I match your energy and if you don't reciprocate I have zero patience for it. If they were genuinely interested they would put in tons more effort.
From my perspective as a man, it is extremely difficult to know what a woman wants. So the chase is off the table because it is an extreme gamble of either successful getting a date or being labelled a creep. The chase should not be a thing because, as a guy, I will play it better safe than sorry. Communication is necessary. Don't make it harder by expecting me to understand vague hints. Direct communication is the best way to get what you want.
My gripe with dating apps is that a majority of women's profiles just have their snapchat or Instagram handle, and they expect me to text them on those apps. Why the heck should I have to use another app's texting feature when one exists on the dating app?
No if a woman has an instagram handle and doesn't want to communicate via the Tinder app, it means she is an influencer looking for followers, nothing more. Really. "Influencers" post pix on Tinder to get thirsty guys to follow them on the 'gram.
I learned to avoid women that want a guy to chase them like the plague in middle school. This type of woman isn’t chasing love, she’s chasing anxiety.
It’s really the most toxic and unattractive thing a woman can do. Especially in a world of “no means no” and #metoo.
The dating expert also noted that finding a partner today might be even harder than it was in the past. "These expectations for men to have a good income, take the lead, and be physically attractive have been around for centuries, but now there is an added desire for men to be confident and strong and comfortable with emotions and being vulnerable!" Rachel shared.
While there are some men that get a lot of attention on dating apps without much effort, that's not the case for everyone. "There is another subset of men that never get any matches or messages, partly because of the superficial nature of dating apps that are so focused on appearance," Rachel noted. "Research shows that men that have more to offer (skills of emotional connection, humor, empathy, listening skills, ability to take advice and change their views or behavior, and so on) will do better meeting people in real life."
How often women ghost. I don't much care about getting rejected, sure it sucks but it's an expectation we have going into dating, it's going to happen quite a lot. But for the love of god, reject me in any way except for ghosting.
At least if I get blocked, or insulted, or politely put down, I know the other person's intentions and can move on with my life. If I'm ghosted out of the blue, I have no way of knowing if the other person has moved on, or is just too busy to contact me, or is playing hard to get. I'd take getting directly rejected 100 times over the ambiguity of getting ghosted by someone I was interested in.
Edit: obviously ghosting is acceptable if the other person doesn't take no for an answer or otherwise makes you uncomfortable.
I have a playstation if I want to play games. If I'm into you, I'll tell you.
"Come over to my house," or "Can I come to your house," is not an appropriate way to tell a woman you're into them. Especially on the first encounter.
That women want you to approach them but are unapproachable at the same time.
But not everything about modern dating has made men's lives more difficult. "On the other hand, dating apps do make it easier for men to approach women without having to worry that they’re harassing them," Rachel says. "If you’re at the gym, at work or in a bar or café, it’s difficult to know whether talking to a woman is appropriate or an invasion of privacy, and of course, you don’t know if the woman is open to dating. (This applies to all genders and orientations, of course – but for heterosexual men, there is another layer of concern about safety and privilege.)"
Only issue I've had is in gauging how quickly to escalate. Some women seem to lose interest if you move too slow, others get turned off if you push too quickly. Online dating really exaggerates this because you can't get feedback from body language during the conversation.
The god-awful grueling scrutiny. Whatever happened to just two people having fun? Instead, you turn a date into a job interview nightmare with a bunch of gotcha questions and a 5-year plan.
I spent a week talking to you and asked if you’d like to meet and talk more. You went silent.
I moved on to another match. You came back a week later and asked how I was doing.
Are you dumb? Or are men that desperate to talk to a woman online and will forgive ghosting and making me wait on you hand and foot on your “precious” time as if my time isn’t valuable at all.
If you wonder why men don’t respond to you after you’ve made us wait a few days for a simple response, it’s because those are the good ones. We didn’t respond because you made us wait for a f*****g sentence.
The dating expert also shared some of the best advice she has for men dating in this modern world. "It’s helpful to understand that we can all be too judgmental about small things because they remind us of something that happened in a previous dating experience or relationship," Rachel says.
"We are vigilant because we want to protect ourselves from getting hurt or from disappointment. So when women say 'Don’t bother messaging me if …' on dating profiles, it sounds very intolerant but actually comes from a place of protection and empowerment: I deserve to be treated well and I’m not taking any risks," she explained.
Modern dating is the most frustrating thing I've come across in modern dating.
Specifically how most people my age (20's) simply aren't trying to engage romantically outside of the s****y dating apps... and even if they do, the expectations are already so inflated by said apps it just becomes a frustrating ordeal for both parties.
You can actually still get lucky just doing a hobby where people come together. I got my fiance through Discord because we both like the same videogames, a friend of mine found someone by playing DND and another had a relationship that came to be because they both liked anime and somehow got together because she told a store clerk she wanted to build a Gundam and he had experience and overheard this.
Thank God I'm not dating anymore. My problem was the ridiculous double standards out there and the cherry picking of feminist ideals when it was convenient. If you wanted something, you're misogynistic. If you didn't give something they wanted, you weren't chivalrous. If you want sex, you're a f**k boy. If she wanted money, she's just someone who knows her worth, not a gold digger. She is worth everything just because. You gotta prove what you bring for her.
I knew tons of women that behaved like that. They're all out of my life, thankyouverymuch.
A lot of young women in my generation glorify cheating and have high expectations in what they want in a man but they don't meet those expectations themselves. That's why some of them get an older sugar daddy.
I worked at a predominantly woman dominated workplace for a number of years and some of these younger women will say s**t like they want a man that makes good money however they work a min wage job.
As a woman in the same boat: a lot of this is universal; match but never responds, no effort, ghosting, lies/misleading, catfishing, Rejection frustration. The rest seems to be misconceptions. Most women don't want to be chased or set double standards. This is a reflection of an immature individual, as is any form of game and is the red flag you need to see. "you can't even talk to women anymore!" If you're coming across creepy, you're doing something wrong. Talk to us like we're humans with value outside of your physical interest. Like you, we want to be seen and heard. Of all the people you have ever known, how many would YOU date? Maybe 5%? Fact is most people you meet/match won't be interested in dating you (regardless of your gender). Looks may make a first impression but they are far from all that matters. Mutual interest and compatibility are rare. So sorting through all the weeds is par.for the course.
Rachel also says that talking openly is the healthiest way to avoid these common misunderstandings and frustrations. "If you’re not sure whether you’re going too fast or slow, just ask 'What pace works best for you? I’ve found in the past that people vary in what they feel comfortable with, so it would be helpful for you to tell me if I’m going too slowly or quickly,'" the expert suggests. "It’s important that this is two-way: a woman who is in a good place for healthy dating will ask you back: 'What works best for you?'"
The more I play into the f**kboy/player archetype, the better things go for me and while I do *like* when things go well for me, I don't like that it's because I embrace behaviors that I've been taught are counterproductive.
If we approach it's "not appropriate and being creep even for something as small as Hi".
If we don't approach then "how are you supposed to get into relationship if you don't approach".
If we approach a women we know then they don't put the equal efforts and love the runner chaser dynamic.
If a women is interested in me then she won't put any efforts other than eye contact and later complain I don't get hints
and most of the women around me can't even hold conversations, others are just committed and not available.
Regardless of gender approaching someone isn't inapproproate per se, it really depends on the situation. Are you going to approach them at a bar, a hobby, or another place where social interaction with strangers is generally accepted and will you leave them the fcku alone if they say they're not interested? Totally fine, go for it, rooting for you 🤞 Or are you going to approach them at their job or in a situation where it's very clear that they don't want interaction (e.g. wearing earphones). Then please just don't. It's really not that hard and I've never heard anyone complain about the former.
Generally I feel like the bad guy and that I'm under the microscope being judged under the umbrella of "ugh, men". It's so assumed that I'm like that that I cannot do anything right. In general my goals with dating are to find a person I like, connect with and get into a long term commitment. I don't do ONS, I don't like people coming into my home really. But here's the experience, you meet a girl, you invite her out quickly. That's too quick and you're a man so you're just trying to get her into bed. So you slow down try to be a bit longer, leave it up to her. Nope that's indecisive, you need to be clear and know what you want. So you go down the middle and take it at a pace you're comfortable with. Nope wrong again you've got to do it at her pace which if faster than your pace is wrong again. You're just expected to get everything right first time. Combine this with actually trying to get a date and especially with online dating you'll never be good enough, ever. It's always going to be "your photos aren't good enough, your bio isn't quite right" so putting the effort in after the 4th or 5th redo is just incredibly frustrating. Generally the standards you're expected to meet vary so rapidly but are hyperspecific, so you cannot meet them.
So ladies can't have opinions on a pic/ bio they like?? And the dude talks as if women arent scrutinized almost daily ever since childhood.
Rachel shared that she often discusses with her straight male clients the need to understand what might be driving the expectations of the other person. "Expecting someone to read your mind is unrealistic and often comes from an unmet need for a responsive caregiver," she noted.
"As very young infants, we need our caregivers to know when we’re hungry, tired, too hot or cold or distressed, and to respond appropriately. We can only cry at that stage, so we need them to read our minds. If we experience that responsiveness and attunement as young infants, we can move onto more emotionally mature developmental stages where we can simply request what we need and not feel wounded when people don’t always 'get' us immediately," Rachel explained.
Dinner-view culture and expectations.
Honestly, the ROI isn’t there. The issue is not the price. It’s the return. It’s emptying to watch someone pic over an expensive dish and making small talk.
I would rather pay for a ticketed event, go to a museum, or hike, bike, kayak, golf, volunteer, run a race, etc. I know that I’m going to enjoy those things. I see a lot of women doing those things happily as well. Unfortunately, I have felt and been told (in a round about way and directly) that companionship is earned.
A genuine connection is rare and you’re less likely to find it over a “dinner-view” (talking about divorces, dating broken divorcees, finances, time with children, etc). Being in my late 40s, it’s important to enjoy my time. I date less frequently and usually it’s a female friend who has “got this really nice friend” when I do.
I'd rather go out and do an activity other than f===ing, which is what the majority of guys, I find, want. Not that I'm a prude by any means but let's meet in public a couple times. Honestly.
Gotta say the most frustrating thing we've seen lately is the judgement and worrying about what others think. Whether it be family, friends, etc. Whatever happened to just being happy.
Women who show romantic interest and we grow closer together, but then when I try and take things to the next level, they pull back and say that they’re not emotionally ready to be in a relationship only to turn around and date someone else.
"Recognizing when someone needs something (mindreading) from us that we can’t give helps us to decide when to move on from a dating experience or relationship," Rachel added. "Sometimes having an open discussion about their relationship template and expectations can be enough to help them see they need to change, but this needs to be done without criticism, blame or defensiveness."
"Ultimately, good relationship skills such as being able to discussing difficult emotional issues without it escalating are absolutely vital to navigating those early stages of dating, which is why I do a lot of work on those skills with people so they are ready when the right person comes along!" the expert shared.
If you'd like to gain insight into your own relationships or check out Rachel's dating workbook, be sure to visit her website!
I tend to feel like I’m in a psych ward. You know how talking too much = anxiety, taking not enough = depression? Everything you do is the wrong thing to do.
If I chase when it’s not wanted, I’m seen as obsessed. If I don’t chase when it’s wanted, I’m seen as uninterested. But I am completely unable to tell who wants to be chased and doesn’t want to and asking for clarification is kinda taboo. So it’s kind of a guessing game but if I f**k up, the gossip could spread to future potential partners. So a lot of us lean toward “Better safe than sorry” meaning we don’t ask. But then women think we don’t like them or care about them or whatever. Idk if you can understand how this would drive someone crazy trying to navigate this. I’ve had the most success being detached and only pursuing women who express enough interest in me that it’s distinguishable from friendliness because that takes the guess work out of it.
I’ll tackle the older end of things, as I am in my 50s.
That saying that women control access to sex and men control access to relationships is absolutely true as you get older. He’s looking for someone to f**k who he might eventually like a relationship with. She’s looking for a relationship with someone who she might eventually f**k.
First dates with women my age turn into financial and relationship history colonoscopies. They want to know details of your financial prospects so they know if you can either keep up or provide and they want to know what they are getting into because they are looking for the guy they hope to be buried next to someday. ON A FIRST DATE. They want to know the deepest and most painful details of why your first marriage failed that only your closest two friends in the world know…ON A FIRST DATE.
Meanwhile, most guys have been there and done that. And we just don’t understand why anyone would want to go through that hell again. We want someone we can laugh with, watch movies with, talk with, snuggle, and f**k. Why ruin that with a serious relationship? We aren’t thinking about long-term relationships yet. If it leads to that, great. But that’s off the table for now and may never be on the table.
It makes for a lot of frustrating first date fails on both sides.
How about something in between? Maybe a bit of the relationship before the f---ing. Maybe meeting in public a couple times versus inviting a stranger into your house (or vice versa).
Honestly some men have it way easier on the dating front while others like me struggle. Only thing I'd say is that it's a pain to chat with a wall, so much so that I just straight up give up.
If you're not participating in the conversation or even trying to have one, then I have no reason to be on the date.
Side note, dating apps are something there to ruin my mental health, confidence and any self image I've built for myself. Weeks of no matches into straight up ghosting from first hello whenever I do get one. Or then it's a scammer.
I guess in a nutshell, good date would be win-win for both participants, not just one person doing everything and getting "a reward". Going to a bar and getting one night stand or just straight up hiring hooker is easier, if you just wanna get off.
It's easy to tell if she's a scammer. 1. She's attractive. 2. She uses funny english. 3. Photos show a foreign city behind her. 4. If you ask her local-specific stuff she can't answer, e.g. ask her which local restaurant she likes. 5. She asks you for cellphone data/airtime/petrol.
Barrier to entry is quite high, but also 'the bar is on the floor'. It makes me feel like there's something wrong with me, if the minimum standards are so low, but I still can't get a date.
A lot of these seem to be frustrated opinions of people that spent too much time on dating apps. Because these are exactly the strange, weirdly high double standard things you find there. People (no, it's obviously not only women!) that can't get out of the mindset that there could be someone "better" right around the corner so they are afraid to keep what they have. People that rather ghost than talk things out when it turns out it's not the right partner, causing both parties to have a longer grieving process. People that set standards way too high because Tinder and Bumble have so many people on that rationally the perfect match should exist - until it doesn't. Plus, the general shift of culture from women as little house keepers to independent people is still a shift in the making.
So occasionally neither gender knows what to do now with things changing. Which all leads to frustrations on both sides because they feel as if they were surrounded by jackasses.
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I stopped reading after 10: Are these just 25 variations on the same theme?
Basically, yes. And boy am I glad I don't date anymore. All these things the men are complaining about are things I've experienced FROM the guys I've dated.
Load More Replies... Where exactly are all these women who want to be chased? I've never met one. It isn't rocket science. Is it an event or place where a woman can reasonably expect to be approached? Then do so. Have a conversation, ask her out, whatever, but if she says no, take the no. If she wants to play games, just make sure it isn't with you. If they randomly stop talking to you, chances are they were scared to just outright tell you for whatever reason. Just know that most of what we do is for our safety, not your comfort. We have to.
"I've never met one" ... Honest question, do you date women?
Load More Replies... A lot of these seem to be frustrated opinions of people that spent too much time on dating apps. Because these are exactly the strange, weirdly high double standard things you find there. People (no, it's obviously not only women!) that can't get out of the mindset that there could be someone "better" right around the corner so they are afraid to keep what they have. People that rather ghost than talk things out when it turns out it's not the right partner, causing both parties to have a longer grieving process. People that set standards way too high because Tinder and Bumble have so many people on that rationally the perfect match should exist - until it doesn't. Plus, the general shift of culture from women as little house keepers to independent people is still a shift in the making.
So occasionally neither gender knows what to do now with things changing. Which all leads to frustrations on both sides because they feel as if they were surrounded by jackasses.
Load More Replies... I stopped reading after 10: Are these just 25 variations on the same theme?
Basically, yes. And boy am I glad I don't date anymore. All these things the men are complaining about are things I've experienced FROM the guys I've dated.
Load More Replies... Where exactly are all these women who want to be chased? I've never met one. It isn't rocket science. Is it an event or place where a woman can reasonably expect to be approached? Then do so. Have a conversation, ask her out, whatever, but if she says no, take the no. If she wants to play games, just make sure it isn't with you. If they randomly stop talking to you, chances are they were scared to just outright tell you for whatever reason. Just know that most of what we do is for our safety, not your comfort. We have to.
"I've never met one" ... Honest question, do you date women?
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