Guy Explains How Intrinsically Bad It Is That Job Postings Don’t Always Mention The Pay, Goes Viral
You’re scrolling through Facebook and you stumble upon a job ad. The photo looks awesome, the description sounds inviting, the team looks friendly, and you even feel you’re qualified for the position. But you open the job posting and… you can’t find the salary. Where is it? Is it behind the couch again, next to the remote?
Unfortunately, no. You can’t find the salary because it’s not there. It’s not a test to check how perceptive you are. The company chose not to include it in the posting. And this lack of transparency is making a lot of people angry. One of them is award-winning writer Matt Wallace.
He took to Twitter to explain why companies might choose not to include the salary and what you can do during interviews when they ask you what salary you’re looking for. And you can practically feel Wallace’s righteous indignation. He’s right. There’s no reason not to mention the salary in the job posting. Pretty please, mega-corporations?
We went into detail about why some employers don’t post salaries in job ads with Eddy Ng, the James and Elizabeth Freeman Professor of Management at Bucknell University in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. He told Bored Panda that there are multiple reasons for this, but the main one is to avoid salary comparisons. Read on for his insights and advice on what to do when asked what salary you’re looking for during a job interview.
More info: Twitter | Instagram | Matt-Wallace.com
Writer Matt Wallace called out companies and clients that [ahem] ‘forget’ to put the salary in their job postings
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Image credits: MattFnWallace
Image credits: MattFnWallace
“In certain labor markets or in a tight labor market situation, employers may have to pay higher salaries to attract new employees than existing ones (a situation known as salary inversion). This can cause resentment among existing employees,” Professor Ng told Bored Panda. “It is also possible that an employer may wish to pay below market, and therefore do not disclose salary ranges. Knowledge of pay can cause greater job satisfaction or dissatisfaction than the actual pay itself due to social comparisons.”
Once you’re actually at the job interview, Professor Ng says that you ought to expect a question about pay expectations. That means that you should do some research and get to know what competitive pay for the position in question is like in the job market. “There are various sources of pay information, including online self-reports by current employees such as Glassdoor, Indeed, and PayScale. You should research them in advance,” he said.
“It is not necessary to quote a salary expectation lower than the range reported online as employers don’t make hiring decisions based on (low) pay alone; at the same time, you don’t want to quote an expectation that is higher than market pay, as it may miscue prospective employers. Managers, professional and technical workers generally have the ability to negotiate starting pay when an offer is extended.”
In Wallace’s opinion, companies omit to mention salaries because they’re trying to save on paying employees what their jobs are actually worth in a competitive market. This makes potential recruits waste their time and energy not only trying to find out what their potential salaries might be but also haggling over them in interviews.
And we all know that the balance of power is usually in the employer’s corner during these negotiations. In short, not mentioning the salary in job postings (and even going as far as to ask someone what salary they’re looking for in an interview) can be considered to be a predatory practice and a red flag. These kinds of companies want someone desperate yet skilled to work for them while saving money at their expense.
Wallace also has a wonderful guide for any of you Pandas who might be freelancers. He lists all the ways that clients might try and get you to work for free and what you can say to shut down their arguments. Check it out here.
The LA-writer has penned over a hundred short stories, has also written for film and television, and is the Hugo-winning author of ‘Rencor: Life in Grudge City.’ When he was younger, he used to be a pro wrestler and unarmed combat instructor. This goes to show that only the coolest people become writers.
Twitter users shared their thoughts and feelings about poor salary transparency in the job market. Here’s what some of them said
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Share on FacebookAnd then they act confused when you ask them for the going rate for that position. 'Competitive salary' is apparently just a buzzword, and most don't seem to grasp that that means a salary that competes (equal or greater than) with other salaries in that field.
Load More Replies...Where I work (in Illinois, USA) a law went into effect January 2, 2020 that made it "unlawful for an employer to request or require a wage or salary history from a job applicant as a condition of being considered for employment or as a condition of employment." It is also unlawful for them to ask about prior benefits, or to ask your previous employer how much you earned.
Wow for once I am truly impressed with something the US has done.
Load More Replies...I won't even bother . There's a reason they're not being up front with salary
Whenever I was asked how much I made on my last job, I'd give a number that reflected the minimum amount that I wanted to get paid on the new job. They've never called BS on me. I don't know if it didn't occur to them , or if it's illegal to ask employers what their former employees made. They know they have a low probability of hiring me if they come in lower than the salary I told them I was already making, so they'd usually come up a bit from the number I gave them. Salary negotiation is a dirty game, and if the employers are okay with lying and cheating, then so am I. That said, sites such as Glassdoor give salary expectations for many fields, and I use that input to cultivate my salary requirements. Remember, they won't work you less just because they're paying you less.
I completely agree. It's asinine to waste my time or a potential new employer's with interviews and that nonsense if it's going to pay less than what I'm currently making, forcing me to turn it down. If they can't be up front about what they're willing to pay for my skills, why should I even bother.
There's an awful trend to put a huge range now too, which is completely unhelpful. I saw a job on LINKEDIN which had a range of $64-134k. You are not looking for the same person with a salary range that wide.
guess i'll be saying 15k more than i actually expect to get paid when asked now, thanks for the tips.
After 30 years, I hate hearing that it's not a direct job - it's a contract-to-hire job. But the full time job never happens. Six month to a year and they let you go and start over. Either your manager doesn't have the authority or it's a carrot to dangle so you work extra hard to get the real job when it was never going to happen. I've had jobs that almost there to full time for two years before giving up and moving on. They all say the same thing. Are you sure? You were in next quarters budget for full time. Right...
I remember to have applied to a job (thru headhunters) once in which salary was not published. At that time, I was employed so my position was safe and I wouldn't change if salary ended to be lower, even if the post was as attractive as the one I had. When I passed every step and I was one of the two selected final applicants after a couple of months of tests, a range of salary was unveiled. And mine was rigt in the middle of that range. The end: I won and I was selected but they pushed too hard to the lower limit of the range of salary so I suggested to deal to the second one at the podium. I took that time as a training and as a recommendation: not to apply if suspicions are salary won't be attractive enough.
Anytime money is involved it should be straightforward weather it's wages or payment for goods and services.
Made the mistake of going through 3 rounds of interviews without asking about salary because it wasn't listed and I was so psyched about the position. Got the offer...but at almost a third less than I was expecting. I asked for more in the negotiations. They upped the offer a little. And they insulted me by saying they had a free gym, "which you look like you could use." Needless to say, it tainted one of the best interview processes I otherwise ever had, and wound up being indicative of the workplace environment. I lasted less than three months.
Wow I would never go through 4 unpaid rounds of interviews.
Load More Replies...Agreed 100 percent put the f*****g salary down it's that easy!! I won't even apply save my time!! The US is the worst at this makes my f*****g blood boil. Not sure how other countries are??
The same. They only tell you the salary if it's a unionized branch of industry where the unions have negotiated tarrifs.
Load More Replies...As a former supervisor who has hired several people, I can say that there are several reasons why salary is not included in the job listing. Salary depends on things like years of experience and level of education. The most our HR department could do in a job listing is to put a salary range, from the lowest salary (for an applicant just out of college with no work experience) to the highest salary (for someone with an advanced degree who has had several years of experience). When I review the resumes or CVs and do the interviews, I score the applicant on a number of factors; at the end, I add up the scores to determine who is the best qualified. Our HR then offers the selected applicant a certain salary. If the applicant thinks they deserve a higher salary, they fill out a request form and supply evidence to support the request. Then, as the supervisor, I review the request and decide whether they are eligible for the higher salary. Hiring people is actually quite complicated.
"I hate when they say 'expected salary' on an online application and you cant submit the application unless you enter an actual number" Just type 0 :P
Yeah, it's called "do your research!" You should know the approximate market value of the skills you bring to the table. If you can't even do the bare minimum and figure out your own worth, then why should anyone else?
This is exactly one of the reasons why I work for myself. I know how the game works. I've seen how much a business ower and shareholders get when they put together deals for companies and how much of it is actually payed to the employees. They don't 100% care about you, they care about you just enough to make sure you keep the machine moving for them so they can make passive income from your efforts. Yes they own the asset, but the pyramid needs to be flipped so that you can can the lion share for how much you actually make that company grow.
There are sources available on the internet to research what a job is paid in the particular region and job skills. You owe it to yourself to go into the interview knowing what you are realisticall worth. Otherwise you are just leaving yourself open to what someone wants to get away with paying you.
Here is ONE thing the government has right, pay scales, based on education and experience. Women are discriminated against to this day about pay. So are minorities. I once saw an African American man apply for a very low level entry job because he had "a baby on the way" and needed to take care of the child. Manager thanked him, waited for him to leave, then threw the app in the trash without even reading it. Employers of this type are looking to take advantage anywhere they can get it, even at your expense. HR is the worst now.
Or... Wanted... helicopter pilot to fly in Alaska... cold weather, dangerous conditions, must be available to work at all hours, nights and weekends on call... must have 50,000 hours of flying experience. Self insured... $28,000 per year. Um Yea OK... NOT!!!
The thing about applying for jobs online that *really* boils my piss, is when you've just spent the last twenty minutes carefully filling in all the details of your work history, education, and qualifications - then it asks you to upload a copy of your current resume. AAARRRGH!
Omg, I've been complaining about it all year. At least a STARTING salary. I even email them,of course many don't answer, though some do if you just ask! In the EU they're quite good about it, at least for public work, but still a lot of gaps. I'm in the wrong career and one of the reasons I don't change is not only the insecurity but the search is such a pain and so time consuming!!!
"We only hire the best." "Fine what do you pay the best?" "We look up the average for that position in this area." "So tell me, how do you hire the best by only offering average salaries?" Crickets
On the other end, after you’ve been hired and negotiated your salary, during orientation they make you actually SIGN a non-disclosure agreement saying you agree not to discuss your salary with other employees—-because you could be terminated for it! It’s sure sign they’ve lowballed and screwed over people who don’t research average salaries for their jobs and asked—-or settled—-for too little money. If you come across that bullshit, restart your job search and get out of there as soon as you find a fairer and more open and honest place to work. I guarantee you that, if you don’t, you’ll be leaving in six months anyway because the company is s**t, you’re totally burned out, and the thought of going into work makes you literally throw up every morning because you just can’t take it anymore. So spare yourself six months of misery and get out as as soon as you can.
I believe that it’s illegal in some states to prevent employees from discussing or comparing salaries.
Load More Replies...I only found out this is a thing in the US this year. Salary/hourly rate is almost always included in the ad. If it isn't, it's because there's more details elsewhere (company website /application pack). I was stunned to read that in the US you can be at the point of being offered a job before you know what they're willing to pay you. That's INSANE.
Had someone ask me my current salary in an interview, like an idiot I told them, then they offered me $1,000 more than what I was making. I reminded them that my current job requires a high school education and the job I'm applying for requires a Master's degree. Guys, don't tell them what you currently make, it should have no effect on what salary you ask for! And just don't apply for a job that doesn't list the salary range, they're going to screw you over.
I never liked the questions about past salary. It does not matter at all. I never answer and never had anyone ask again. Sometimes they give a range and state based off experience....and I highly doubt they will go top dollar despite experience. It also means that is the top you can get over time.
I've had this before but it was the employment agent(s) who lied. They've told me a top limit which was fine for my salary but when I was offered the job they came in £5k under what I wanted, asked for more, the agent says"that's their upper budget", I question why they told me it was higher, "because I knew you'd get the job and figured you'd take it". That's happened twice, one agent spent all weekend phoning me trying to persuade me. Utter d***s.
Always make THEM be the first t put out a number. Add 10+% to that number and start negotiating.
Definitely is a rub in the wrong direction for a lot of stuff like this, but there are tricks to getting around it. The pre-interview is a pain, but it's how you get somewhere when you are going through a headhunter/recruiter. Always, ALWAYS, tell them at least 10-15k over *gross* of your current yearly. I usually aim at that, and then factor my benefits and stuff in on top of it, balances to another few grand beyond the aforementioned. Worst they can say is no.
What an angry approach. I do agree that at least a range should be provided. But the company (even freelance) doesn't know you from Adam. People can put anything on a resume. They'll pay for the best product. I've taken jobs (and been very happy) that didn't have a specific salary listed.
You are mistaken. Different people get paid differently depending on other factors including experience, but there is always a base salary.
Load More Replies...I have a friend who applied for a job and asked for double the rate he'd have where i worked (he was a new entry). He got the job. Sometimes they don't tell a salary because they have a wide range of competences they can hire, and they will pay accordingly. You're just good enough? minimal pay. You're a f*****g guru that can help the company on any project? High a f pay. You do your homework (about salary in the market and in that particular place), you go there with your skills and you negotiate based on how the interview went. If you're not negotiating, it's on you! Ask higher than what you want, but not crazy high. If you're worth it you'll get it. If you're not, they will usually tell you. Where i live they usually do the negotiation separately from the technical interview, so if you get that 2nd call, they chose you. You have some leverage. It's your (decently higher) rate or another round of interviews that cost time and money.
If I want 100 but the job is advertised for 90, then there will be no application. It saves everyone's time.
Load More Replies...And then they act confused when you ask them for the going rate for that position. 'Competitive salary' is apparently just a buzzword, and most don't seem to grasp that that means a salary that competes (equal or greater than) with other salaries in that field.
Load More Replies...Where I work (in Illinois, USA) a law went into effect January 2, 2020 that made it "unlawful for an employer to request or require a wage or salary history from a job applicant as a condition of being considered for employment or as a condition of employment." It is also unlawful for them to ask about prior benefits, or to ask your previous employer how much you earned.
Wow for once I am truly impressed with something the US has done.
Load More Replies...I won't even bother . There's a reason they're not being up front with salary
Whenever I was asked how much I made on my last job, I'd give a number that reflected the minimum amount that I wanted to get paid on the new job. They've never called BS on me. I don't know if it didn't occur to them , or if it's illegal to ask employers what their former employees made. They know they have a low probability of hiring me if they come in lower than the salary I told them I was already making, so they'd usually come up a bit from the number I gave them. Salary negotiation is a dirty game, and if the employers are okay with lying and cheating, then so am I. That said, sites such as Glassdoor give salary expectations for many fields, and I use that input to cultivate my salary requirements. Remember, they won't work you less just because they're paying you less.
I completely agree. It's asinine to waste my time or a potential new employer's with interviews and that nonsense if it's going to pay less than what I'm currently making, forcing me to turn it down. If they can't be up front about what they're willing to pay for my skills, why should I even bother.
There's an awful trend to put a huge range now too, which is completely unhelpful. I saw a job on LINKEDIN which had a range of $64-134k. You are not looking for the same person with a salary range that wide.
guess i'll be saying 15k more than i actually expect to get paid when asked now, thanks for the tips.
After 30 years, I hate hearing that it's not a direct job - it's a contract-to-hire job. But the full time job never happens. Six month to a year and they let you go and start over. Either your manager doesn't have the authority or it's a carrot to dangle so you work extra hard to get the real job when it was never going to happen. I've had jobs that almost there to full time for two years before giving up and moving on. They all say the same thing. Are you sure? You were in next quarters budget for full time. Right...
I remember to have applied to a job (thru headhunters) once in which salary was not published. At that time, I was employed so my position was safe and I wouldn't change if salary ended to be lower, even if the post was as attractive as the one I had. When I passed every step and I was one of the two selected final applicants after a couple of months of tests, a range of salary was unveiled. And mine was rigt in the middle of that range. The end: I won and I was selected but they pushed too hard to the lower limit of the range of salary so I suggested to deal to the second one at the podium. I took that time as a training and as a recommendation: not to apply if suspicions are salary won't be attractive enough.
Anytime money is involved it should be straightforward weather it's wages or payment for goods and services.
Made the mistake of going through 3 rounds of interviews without asking about salary because it wasn't listed and I was so psyched about the position. Got the offer...but at almost a third less than I was expecting. I asked for more in the negotiations. They upped the offer a little. And they insulted me by saying they had a free gym, "which you look like you could use." Needless to say, it tainted one of the best interview processes I otherwise ever had, and wound up being indicative of the workplace environment. I lasted less than three months.
Wow I would never go through 4 unpaid rounds of interviews.
Load More Replies...Agreed 100 percent put the f*****g salary down it's that easy!! I won't even apply save my time!! The US is the worst at this makes my f*****g blood boil. Not sure how other countries are??
The same. They only tell you the salary if it's a unionized branch of industry where the unions have negotiated tarrifs.
Load More Replies...As a former supervisor who has hired several people, I can say that there are several reasons why salary is not included in the job listing. Salary depends on things like years of experience and level of education. The most our HR department could do in a job listing is to put a salary range, from the lowest salary (for an applicant just out of college with no work experience) to the highest salary (for someone with an advanced degree who has had several years of experience). When I review the resumes or CVs and do the interviews, I score the applicant on a number of factors; at the end, I add up the scores to determine who is the best qualified. Our HR then offers the selected applicant a certain salary. If the applicant thinks they deserve a higher salary, they fill out a request form and supply evidence to support the request. Then, as the supervisor, I review the request and decide whether they are eligible for the higher salary. Hiring people is actually quite complicated.
"I hate when they say 'expected salary' on an online application and you cant submit the application unless you enter an actual number" Just type 0 :P
Yeah, it's called "do your research!" You should know the approximate market value of the skills you bring to the table. If you can't even do the bare minimum and figure out your own worth, then why should anyone else?
This is exactly one of the reasons why I work for myself. I know how the game works. I've seen how much a business ower and shareholders get when they put together deals for companies and how much of it is actually payed to the employees. They don't 100% care about you, they care about you just enough to make sure you keep the machine moving for them so they can make passive income from your efforts. Yes they own the asset, but the pyramid needs to be flipped so that you can can the lion share for how much you actually make that company grow.
There are sources available on the internet to research what a job is paid in the particular region and job skills. You owe it to yourself to go into the interview knowing what you are realisticall worth. Otherwise you are just leaving yourself open to what someone wants to get away with paying you.
Here is ONE thing the government has right, pay scales, based on education and experience. Women are discriminated against to this day about pay. So are minorities. I once saw an African American man apply for a very low level entry job because he had "a baby on the way" and needed to take care of the child. Manager thanked him, waited for him to leave, then threw the app in the trash without even reading it. Employers of this type are looking to take advantage anywhere they can get it, even at your expense. HR is the worst now.
Or... Wanted... helicopter pilot to fly in Alaska... cold weather, dangerous conditions, must be available to work at all hours, nights and weekends on call... must have 50,000 hours of flying experience. Self insured... $28,000 per year. Um Yea OK... NOT!!!
The thing about applying for jobs online that *really* boils my piss, is when you've just spent the last twenty minutes carefully filling in all the details of your work history, education, and qualifications - then it asks you to upload a copy of your current resume. AAARRRGH!
Omg, I've been complaining about it all year. At least a STARTING salary. I even email them,of course many don't answer, though some do if you just ask! In the EU they're quite good about it, at least for public work, but still a lot of gaps. I'm in the wrong career and one of the reasons I don't change is not only the insecurity but the search is such a pain and so time consuming!!!
"We only hire the best." "Fine what do you pay the best?" "We look up the average for that position in this area." "So tell me, how do you hire the best by only offering average salaries?" Crickets
On the other end, after you’ve been hired and negotiated your salary, during orientation they make you actually SIGN a non-disclosure agreement saying you agree not to discuss your salary with other employees—-because you could be terminated for it! It’s sure sign they’ve lowballed and screwed over people who don’t research average salaries for their jobs and asked—-or settled—-for too little money. If you come across that bullshit, restart your job search and get out of there as soon as you find a fairer and more open and honest place to work. I guarantee you that, if you don’t, you’ll be leaving in six months anyway because the company is s**t, you’re totally burned out, and the thought of going into work makes you literally throw up every morning because you just can’t take it anymore. So spare yourself six months of misery and get out as as soon as you can.
I believe that it’s illegal in some states to prevent employees from discussing or comparing salaries.
Load More Replies...I only found out this is a thing in the US this year. Salary/hourly rate is almost always included in the ad. If it isn't, it's because there's more details elsewhere (company website /application pack). I was stunned to read that in the US you can be at the point of being offered a job before you know what they're willing to pay you. That's INSANE.
Had someone ask me my current salary in an interview, like an idiot I told them, then they offered me $1,000 more than what I was making. I reminded them that my current job requires a high school education and the job I'm applying for requires a Master's degree. Guys, don't tell them what you currently make, it should have no effect on what salary you ask for! And just don't apply for a job that doesn't list the salary range, they're going to screw you over.
I never liked the questions about past salary. It does not matter at all. I never answer and never had anyone ask again. Sometimes they give a range and state based off experience....and I highly doubt they will go top dollar despite experience. It also means that is the top you can get over time.
I've had this before but it was the employment agent(s) who lied. They've told me a top limit which was fine for my salary but when I was offered the job they came in £5k under what I wanted, asked for more, the agent says"that's their upper budget", I question why they told me it was higher, "because I knew you'd get the job and figured you'd take it". That's happened twice, one agent spent all weekend phoning me trying to persuade me. Utter d***s.
Always make THEM be the first t put out a number. Add 10+% to that number and start negotiating.
Definitely is a rub in the wrong direction for a lot of stuff like this, but there are tricks to getting around it. The pre-interview is a pain, but it's how you get somewhere when you are going through a headhunter/recruiter. Always, ALWAYS, tell them at least 10-15k over *gross* of your current yearly. I usually aim at that, and then factor my benefits and stuff in on top of it, balances to another few grand beyond the aforementioned. Worst they can say is no.
What an angry approach. I do agree that at least a range should be provided. But the company (even freelance) doesn't know you from Adam. People can put anything on a resume. They'll pay for the best product. I've taken jobs (and been very happy) that didn't have a specific salary listed.
You are mistaken. Different people get paid differently depending on other factors including experience, but there is always a base salary.
Load More Replies...I have a friend who applied for a job and asked for double the rate he'd have where i worked (he was a new entry). He got the job. Sometimes they don't tell a salary because they have a wide range of competences they can hire, and they will pay accordingly. You're just good enough? minimal pay. You're a f*****g guru that can help the company on any project? High a f pay. You do your homework (about salary in the market and in that particular place), you go there with your skills and you negotiate based on how the interview went. If you're not negotiating, it's on you! Ask higher than what you want, but not crazy high. If you're worth it you'll get it. If you're not, they will usually tell you. Where i live they usually do the negotiation separately from the technical interview, so if you get that 2nd call, they chose you. You have some leverage. It's your (decently higher) rate or another round of interviews that cost time and money.
If I want 100 but the job is advertised for 90, then there will be no application. It saves everyone's time.
Load More Replies...
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