Harvard Grad Explains The Psychology Behind “Not All Men” So Well, Men Are Thanking Her In The Comments For Opening Their Eyes
Most people should know by now that “not all men” is not a good argument for explaining away sexist and harmful behavior toward women. However, despite this, lots of men still use it, stating that far from every guy is like the men who end up on the news for disrespectful and even physically hurtful behavior. Scholar Evelyn, who runs the ‘Herspective’ social media project, believes this has to change.
In a viral TikTok video, Evelyn, who has two master’s degrees from Harvard studying oppression, explained the psychology behind the “not all men” argument. She shared that, in her opinion, there are 3 core sources that lead to this argument and she went into detail about each one. And everything is built on the foundation of needing to be needed and the fear of deferring to women. Check out Evelyn’s full video below and let us know what you think of her analysis. Do you agree with her? Are there other nuances that you think are important? Drop us a comment with your thoughts below.
Bored Panda reached out to award-winning activist and writer Elizabeth Arif-Fear, who is the founder and director of ‘Voice of Salam,’ to get her take on how we as a society can move past the “not all men” mentality. “To really move past victim-blaming, as a society we need to learn to empathize with victims and instead condemn the perpetrators,” she pointed out the essence of the argument. You’ll find Elizabeth’s other insights below.
More info: TikTok | Instagram | HerspectiveFeminist.com
Evelyn went into detail about the psychology behind why men use the “not all men” argument
Image credits: herspective
You can watch Evelyn’s full video right here
@herspective##genderequity ##takedownthepatriarchy ##feminism ##tiktokk ##genderequality ##feminist ##leftist♬ Inspirational Piano – AShamaluevMusic
According to activist Elizabeth, there are a number of things that we can stop doing when it comes to cases of sexual violence against women. “We need to stop thinking about where a woman was, what she was wearing, how she got there, what she was doing. We need to stop and instead first loudly and clearly condemn the perpetrator of violence,” she told Bored Panda about how society should proceed.
“We need to offer complete emotional and legal support to the victims and do the best we can as a society to ensure that they get justice. We need to stop questioning the victim and focus on the perpetrator. We need to look at preventing sexual violence, challenging dangerous attitudes, creating safe spaces for women, helping victims to come forward, and getting perpetrators sentenced. Victim blaming is toxic and must be challenged,” Elizabeth pointed out that some people aren’t aware of just how harmful victim-blaming is, whilst others may deliberately use is a detraction technique—drawing on misogynistic narratives and stereotypes. As a society, we need to stand in solidarity with survivors and do the right thing.
According to Harvard graduate Evelyn, the first source leading to the “not all men” argument is male “pick me” behavior. In short, it’s the desire to be seen as different. You know—one of the good guys. You’d never do anything like those other guys. You’re different. Right? Well, not so much. The researcher believes that this is just a delusion because they’ve already internalized patriarchal values that need unlearning.
Secondly, Evelyn sees the “not all men” argument as a way to silence women and control their voices. She pointed out the hypocrisy that these men are spending their time and energy policing what women say and think instead of denouncing those men who are harming women.
And finally, the scholar identified the presence of what she calls the male superiority complex. Evelyn explains that by saying “not all men,” guys are trying to signal that they’re trustworthy, dependable, and can protect women from the violence and danger that some men pose. However, Evelyn sees this as disempowering women because it implies that the solution to male violence is yet another man with the potential for violence.
Here’s how some people reacted to the educational video. Plenty of men thanked the video creator for making things so clear for them
Evelyn shared with BuzzFeed’s Victoria Vouloumanos that she received a lot of support and appreciation from men after she posted her video on TikTok. According to the Harvard graduate, at the foundation of everything lies men’s lack of deference to women. “Deference is fear and respect,” she said, adding that a lack of it leads to the belief that “anything male is superior to anything female.”
White knighting is another form of this lack of deference because instead of focusing on the woman and her experience, the man would simply do things to boost his own ego and grab other people’s attention. In Evelyn’s opinion, what the knight should instead do is listen to the woman, acknowledge her painful experience, and then do what he can to prevent this from happening again.
Furthermore, Evelyn elaborated about how another fundamental aspect of the “not all men” style of thinking is men’s desire to be needed by women and other men. In fact, she believes that most (if not all) undesirable or harmful behavior that men do stems from this desire to be accepted by everyone. And that, frankly, is the best and most in-depth explanation of how everything connects to the “not all men” mentality that we’ve ever heard. But what about you, dear Pandas? What do you think?
Maybe if we all stopped making divisive statements - women do this, men do that, blacks do the other, asians do this etc. - and just tried to get along as human beings there would be less anger in the world. Less anger would lead to our children growing up in a happier environment and then they would grow up to be nice people. Right now, it just feels like everybody is shouting at anybody who isn't identical to them and it just fosters hostility. Just be nice. Please.
Part of the problem with that request is that it's too vague and too generalised. If you want a specific behaviour to stop, you have to call out that behaviour. "Don't be angry" negates times when anger is an appropriate and valid response. "Just be nice" doesn't address those people who don't know how to measure "nice" as they've never experienced it - it's almost like saying "Have you tried not being addicted to meth because you were trafficked as a small child?" "Men need to respect women" without explaining what that actually means to women is going to lead to frustration - because men and women ARE different, and respect between two men is different to respect between a man and a woman - take "banter" as a prime example; men who are comfortable and even feel validated by jokes between men would be utterly baffled when a woman is offended and hurt on the receiving end. Specifics are needed to ensure the message gets across to everyone, and the world will still not change overnight
I never said 'Don't be angry'. I said try not to be divisive. There's a lot of common ground that people seem to be afraid to occupy. By saying 'just be nice' I am referring to the groups of people that always seem to want to hate and thrive on conflict. There's no statement that I - or anyone else for that matter - could say that would apply to and work for everybody. It's a generalisation. I could have said 'don't be unpleasant', 'don't be rude', 'don't be offensive' but they all carry the same weight. In essence, my point was along the lines of 'we have more things in common than things that divide us'.
This post is specifically about how the phrase "not all men" diminishes what women are saying about mental, physical and sexual abuse. You're doing the same thing by bringing up your personal annoyances about things that are irrelevant to THIS topic. And for the record, there IS no "common ground" to be found with abusive, rapey men.
It's not vague at all. Not even a little. Scagsy just solved world peace if people would listen.
There is a difference between calling out behavior and accusing ALL of a certain group to harbor that behavior. If, no matter how much you try to not be sexist or racist, you will always be accused of racism or sexism, then that alone engenders racism/sexism. The statements that "all men are sexist" or "All whites are racist" are inherently sexist or racist and divisive.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
I see your point but if you get angry with me, I will do anything in my power to make life more difficult for you.
Isn't it much easier to get into a bubble where all what you hear and say makes you feel you belong to a group of people thinking and feeling exactly the same while everyone else is more or less advanced on the "evil" scale? Men vs. women, black vs. white, heterosexual vs. gay, american vs. canadian, muslims vs. christians, boomers vs. millenials. The sad truth is that if you abstract a few levels, it always ends with humans vs. humans.
You actually said it yourself. All humans have a fault and that's what causes all these problems. When you have humans there's the the 7 deadly sins etc. Humans are the worst on this earth. We can only try to learn to be better. But as always you have the worst of humans, criminals too.
I'm tired of this 'not all men'. It's an excuse to dismiss the problem without even trying to understand. When I hear about an abusive mother, I don't begin by "not all mothers", that's total nonsense. Why do -some- guys need to precise they are behaving properly? Only the facts can tell.
My dad left me with scars tstill visible on X-ray 27 years after he died. No joke. And I dnot say "ALL MEN" or even "NOT ALL MEN". SOme *PEOPLE* are mean/cruel/etc., and gender is irrelevant.
Sorry your dad hurt you. You deserved a better parent.
my friends dad was like that,
Right, because you’re hearing about a mother that is specifically abusive. From what I’ve seen even when people refer to abusive men, they just say ‘men’. That’s why some people get so defensive about it, because they’d rather not be associated with awful people like domestic abusers and r*pists.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Logic and Reason - why are they getting so defensive if it's not about them? Unless it really is about them?
Ooo ooo i know the answer on this one. Because the accusations include them but they are innocent and they defend themselves. That's quite logical and reasonable to do.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Nah. Don't buy it. Saying "not all men" is at best oblivious, at worst antagonistic.
Q B F T I fear you may have missed the point entirely.
Then enlighten me
Because "men" is different than "some men" or even "some people".
Hugo Raible: that is an overly-glib interpretation. For example: if i was to say "I have been attacked by men in the past", it would be very obvious that I didn't mean every male on the planet has attacked me. And anyone who deliberately chooses to see only this interpretation, is either blinded by strong anger or emotion, and/or just looking to be offended rather than really empathising in any fashion.
Lauren, there is still a difference between "I have been attacked by men" and "men are predators" - the later is generalizing, see my examples in this thread about other generalizations which are making people uncomfortable as well.
Guess what. Women aren't obligated to protect your feelings when discussing the topic of men physically or sexually abusing women. Women and girls have been told, FOREVER, that we need to be careful about wearing the wrong thing or being in the wrong place or drinking alcohol or anything else that could cause men to lose control and rape us. Girls STILL have stricter dress codes in school so that boys aren't "distracted" by the fact that human girls have legs or breasts or shoulders. We've been held responsible for the thoughts and actions of boys and men for too long. It's time for ALL of you guys to step up and stop shrugging off and normalizing the gross behavior of other men. We're tired.
I don’t think anyone in this comment section is doing that. Your quarrel is not with us.
Oh boy, I get to explain this again. Yipee. Alright if I said “people named Lauren are ignorant”, even though I could be referring to as little as two people, the assumption is that I’m referring to all people named Lauren. Same in this case.
That's not the same thing, logic and reason. I used the example "I have been attacked by men", so the apt comparison using my name is "I have been attacked by Laurens/people named lauren". It actually makes a difference to the meaning of the sentence. English is a bastard that way. But using the "people named x are y" is different to "I've experienced x from people named y". The former is a blanket statement, the second denotes personal experiences with specific "y"s (edit: I can however see how similarly the two phrases are worded, and so I will make an effort moving forward to apply more specific determined to what I say, so as not to leave it open to interpretation)
Im also tired of people using their "education" as a way to vilify men that are good men by saying we are unaware of how evil we are.
That's because, as she says, you're an internal misogynist because of the patriarchal society and deep down inside you hate women and are a sexist... A tad too far fetched if you ask me.
Sounds like she cant get a date because in reality, she is an insufferable and miserable woman to be around... so she uses her "education" to attempt to flip the script and blame men. Men should get more credit. We can smell a rotten woman from a mile away.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Very confident of putting yourself in the group of "good men". A nice guy, are you?
Well Ive been married to a wonderful woman who states that I caught her attention because I was "kind". I work hard, try to be a good father, and try to keep friends that push me to be better... and I to them. So yes, until someone says otherwise... I am a nice guy
"Women are overly emotional". How does that feel, Nadine? Don't you feel the urge to say "that's a stereotype, not all women are emotional"? Feminists are men haters, Muslims are terrorists, Democrats are communists - All of these statements are true, but of course #notallfeminists, #notallmuslims, and #notalldems.
I know! Don't you hate it when some guy says "Not all men murder and cannibalize gay men in an effort to turn them into sex-slave zombies like Jeffrey Dahmer!" That's just a lame excuse
Yup I just dont f*****g Care! Uhhh I got a degree in something brand new so its relevant. Men are going to say something if you keep bringing this s**t up! its like racism, I was taught to not be that way, same with being a feminist. If I see a 90 year old black woman; shes just a 90 year old woman who I have to respect because shes f*****g lived longer than most people.
Thanks for blathering your irrelevancy. And your idiocy.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Agreed entirely
There is a common hashtag that usually pops up on south African Twitter trends. Men are Trash. I ignore it, but it becomes a problem when that phrase is thrown at you even in conversations that are not about gender. they are being used by some women in making sure men don't even have a voice in some things.
anyone who says someone is trash, is actually trash themselves. I have to be careful how to respond, as i dont want to be all "not all women" (and having the shoe on the other foot is educational, having to think about how I come across, just as the same request is being made to males in this very article!)
I have several male friends who feel as though women are constantly looking at them as human trash because they are men. It has gotten to the point where some of my male friends don't want to participate in women issues because "what's the point man and am obviously wrong no matter what!" Which is very unfortunate.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Your friends sound like idiots.
QBFT: what?! You are here frustrated that men dismiss women and their opinions, that they are so hostile; can you not see you are firing your guns in the wrong direction, in my opinion anyway. This, again in my opinion only, is a reasonable and fair expression. To protect ourselves from the irritation of the negative notallmen ppl, we might have the tendency to gatekeep out of an instinct to prevent hearing this toxic stuff; an understandable but unhelpful response as it slices away those who support us. Did men not march alongside women as they sought the vote, even though a great many more stood against women? Did those suffragetes tell them it wasn't their business? No, and we know that the suffragetes bore the mantle of fighting for the vote, so women were not usurped by the support of legitimately decent men
Agreed that women were not usurped by the support of legitimately decent men. Bring on all the decent men, I say. But the Mac's friends "don't want to participate in women's issues" due to, it sounds like, their fragility. They've given up. They're not useful allies. Why have they given up? Because they feel women look at them as trash. Do women look at them like trash? Seems unlikely to me. Hard to know for sure as I, thankfully, don't know Mac's friends but maybe they had a bad experience with a woman or women. Instead of learning from that, perhaps they chose to just give up - their fragile masculinity couldn't handle a woman speaking against them. If they want to be decent men like you suggest, and allies, then I think they need to put more effort in to engage, rather than dissociating from it.
Qbft: point heard and understood :) I think mac engaging in this dialogue is an effort to engage genuinely: I somewhat overlooked how he(I'm assuming) phrased the part about his friends. Wording is a bitch! But I'm glad we could have a chat about it productively, and I have a new angle to ponder for my metaphor :D
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Yes, maybe Mac himself (he self identifies as a man in another post) is engaging with the issues - but as you're speaking about wording, I do find the way he words things very interesting - not so much in this post, which is carefully worded ("friends who FEEL that...") but in another post below, where he says he's been ostracised from conversations for being a man who wanted to understand. I find it interesting he uses very active language, saying he wants to "participate", and he complains that when he "tries to speak" and he wants "to be heard", he is dismissed. I find it very interesting it's all about him doing, him speaking, and not him listening or him hearing. Again, it's hard to know what really happened from just his pov, but I find, from his language, it equally if not more likely that he tried to talk over women and dominate this supposed conversation and that wasn't well received, than he was unfairly excluded by rude women.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
To be clear, we'll never know what really happened in that conversation. But the way he phrases his involvement is interesting. And regardless, if you're trying to get involved in a conversation where you're not wanted, you don't always need to blame person who cuts you out for being unreasonable. Look in the mirror first: have you done or said something that led them to cut you out of the conversation? Why doesnt this person feel comfortable with you being a participant? Is it them, or is it you? And whoever it is, respect consent. If they don't consent to you being in this conversation, that's their right.
As to the conversation I was ostracized from, it was a conversation about abortion and women's rights. It was between a group of co-workers/friends and other acquaintances. In short I have a particular view on abortion. If you really want to know what that is ASK. Don't assume you know because of my use of language or because you saw me identify as male in another post. In short part of my view challenged some of the women in the group and rather than challenge my view with reason they used the penis card. Because I have a penis rather than a vagina I cannot possibly comprehend the intricacies women's rights and abortion. They like you thought they had me figured out simply because I have a penis. In essence they were saying ALL MEN ARE THE SAME. =( This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened to me or to other men. I guess I just have a thicker skin than most and have not begun to believe that I am incapable of understanding because I have a penis. Maybe someday I will.
First off you need to "read between the lines" waaaay less. Second, rather than call my friends idiots. You could have just asked why they feel the way they do? Instead you immediately assumed they had fragile male egos that can't handle strong women. That is the kind of mentality that often keeps men from engaging in the first place! They feel like women look at them as trash because of the plethora of social media that essential demonize men has told them that they are trash. After a while that sort of thing can break a person. And so some of my friends have been broken and they could care less about womens issues now. Not that they were pillars of womens right before or anything but they certainly are never going to be now. It's like if you tell someone long enough that they are useless after a while they then start to believe they actually are useless.
I hear what you are saying. I have literally been told in a conversation that I can't understand because I am a man. So basically, I was told to F off because I was a man in a conversation amongst women that I genuinely wanted to participate in and hopefully learn something.
Mac: this is unsurprising, which saddens me to say. But you are speaking level-headedly (excuse shocking grammar), despite having come across some seemingly scathing toxicity. And you persist, with a dogged politeness, in an effort to be heard, to learn, to have a real conversation. This is excellent that you are this open to learning; conversely it is frustrating that you are coming across obstacles. What I find truly refreshing is your lack of hostility, despite having received it yourself.
Yeah, imagine not having a voice, how awful that would be...
Maybe if we all stopped making divisive statements - women do this, men do that, blacks do the other, asians do this etc. - and just tried to get along as human beings there would be less anger in the world. Less anger would lead to our children growing up in a happier environment and then they would grow up to be nice people. Right now, it just feels like everybody is shouting at anybody who isn't identical to them and it just fosters hostility. Just be nice. Please.
Part of the problem with that request is that it's too vague and too generalised. If you want a specific behaviour to stop, you have to call out that behaviour. "Don't be angry" negates times when anger is an appropriate and valid response. "Just be nice" doesn't address those people who don't know how to measure "nice" as they've never experienced it - it's almost like saying "Have you tried not being addicted to meth because you were trafficked as a small child?" "Men need to respect women" without explaining what that actually means to women is going to lead to frustration - because men and women ARE different, and respect between two men is different to respect between a man and a woman - take "banter" as a prime example; men who are comfortable and even feel validated by jokes between men would be utterly baffled when a woman is offended and hurt on the receiving end. Specifics are needed to ensure the message gets across to everyone, and the world will still not change overnight
I never said 'Don't be angry'. I said try not to be divisive. There's a lot of common ground that people seem to be afraid to occupy. By saying 'just be nice' I am referring to the groups of people that always seem to want to hate and thrive on conflict. There's no statement that I - or anyone else for that matter - could say that would apply to and work for everybody. It's a generalisation. I could have said 'don't be unpleasant', 'don't be rude', 'don't be offensive' but they all carry the same weight. In essence, my point was along the lines of 'we have more things in common than things that divide us'.
This post is specifically about how the phrase "not all men" diminishes what women are saying about mental, physical and sexual abuse. You're doing the same thing by bringing up your personal annoyances about things that are irrelevant to THIS topic. And for the record, there IS no "common ground" to be found with abusive, rapey men.
It's not vague at all. Not even a little. Scagsy just solved world peace if people would listen.
There is a difference between calling out behavior and accusing ALL of a certain group to harbor that behavior. If, no matter how much you try to not be sexist or racist, you will always be accused of racism or sexism, then that alone engenders racism/sexism. The statements that "all men are sexist" or "All whites are racist" are inherently sexist or racist and divisive.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
I see your point but if you get angry with me, I will do anything in my power to make life more difficult for you.
Isn't it much easier to get into a bubble where all what you hear and say makes you feel you belong to a group of people thinking and feeling exactly the same while everyone else is more or less advanced on the "evil" scale? Men vs. women, black vs. white, heterosexual vs. gay, american vs. canadian, muslims vs. christians, boomers vs. millenials. The sad truth is that if you abstract a few levels, it always ends with humans vs. humans.
You actually said it yourself. All humans have a fault and that's what causes all these problems. When you have humans there's the the 7 deadly sins etc. Humans are the worst on this earth. We can only try to learn to be better. But as always you have the worst of humans, criminals too.
I'm tired of this 'not all men'. It's an excuse to dismiss the problem without even trying to understand. When I hear about an abusive mother, I don't begin by "not all mothers", that's total nonsense. Why do -some- guys need to precise they are behaving properly? Only the facts can tell.
My dad left me with scars tstill visible on X-ray 27 years after he died. No joke. And I dnot say "ALL MEN" or even "NOT ALL MEN". SOme *PEOPLE* are mean/cruel/etc., and gender is irrelevant.
Sorry your dad hurt you. You deserved a better parent.
my friends dad was like that,
Right, because you’re hearing about a mother that is specifically abusive. From what I’ve seen even when people refer to abusive men, they just say ‘men’. That’s why some people get so defensive about it, because they’d rather not be associated with awful people like domestic abusers and r*pists.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Logic and Reason - why are they getting so defensive if it's not about them? Unless it really is about them?
Ooo ooo i know the answer on this one. Because the accusations include them but they are innocent and they defend themselves. That's quite logical and reasonable to do.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Nah. Don't buy it. Saying "not all men" is at best oblivious, at worst antagonistic.
Q B F T I fear you may have missed the point entirely.
Then enlighten me
Because "men" is different than "some men" or even "some people".
Hugo Raible: that is an overly-glib interpretation. For example: if i was to say "I have been attacked by men in the past", it would be very obvious that I didn't mean every male on the planet has attacked me. And anyone who deliberately chooses to see only this interpretation, is either blinded by strong anger or emotion, and/or just looking to be offended rather than really empathising in any fashion.
Lauren, there is still a difference between "I have been attacked by men" and "men are predators" - the later is generalizing, see my examples in this thread about other generalizations which are making people uncomfortable as well.
Guess what. Women aren't obligated to protect your feelings when discussing the topic of men physically or sexually abusing women. Women and girls have been told, FOREVER, that we need to be careful about wearing the wrong thing or being in the wrong place or drinking alcohol or anything else that could cause men to lose control and rape us. Girls STILL have stricter dress codes in school so that boys aren't "distracted" by the fact that human girls have legs or breasts or shoulders. We've been held responsible for the thoughts and actions of boys and men for too long. It's time for ALL of you guys to step up and stop shrugging off and normalizing the gross behavior of other men. We're tired.
I don’t think anyone in this comment section is doing that. Your quarrel is not with us.
Oh boy, I get to explain this again. Yipee. Alright if I said “people named Lauren are ignorant”, even though I could be referring to as little as two people, the assumption is that I’m referring to all people named Lauren. Same in this case.
That's not the same thing, logic and reason. I used the example "I have been attacked by men", so the apt comparison using my name is "I have been attacked by Laurens/people named lauren". It actually makes a difference to the meaning of the sentence. English is a bastard that way. But using the "people named x are y" is different to "I've experienced x from people named y". The former is a blanket statement, the second denotes personal experiences with specific "y"s (edit: I can however see how similarly the two phrases are worded, and so I will make an effort moving forward to apply more specific determined to what I say, so as not to leave it open to interpretation)
Im also tired of people using their "education" as a way to vilify men that are good men by saying we are unaware of how evil we are.
That's because, as she says, you're an internal misogynist because of the patriarchal society and deep down inside you hate women and are a sexist... A tad too far fetched if you ask me.
Sounds like she cant get a date because in reality, she is an insufferable and miserable woman to be around... so she uses her "education" to attempt to flip the script and blame men. Men should get more credit. We can smell a rotten woman from a mile away.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Very confident of putting yourself in the group of "good men". A nice guy, are you?
Well Ive been married to a wonderful woman who states that I caught her attention because I was "kind". I work hard, try to be a good father, and try to keep friends that push me to be better... and I to them. So yes, until someone says otherwise... I am a nice guy
"Women are overly emotional". How does that feel, Nadine? Don't you feel the urge to say "that's a stereotype, not all women are emotional"? Feminists are men haters, Muslims are terrorists, Democrats are communists - All of these statements are true, but of course #notallfeminists, #notallmuslims, and #notalldems.
I know! Don't you hate it when some guy says "Not all men murder and cannibalize gay men in an effort to turn them into sex-slave zombies like Jeffrey Dahmer!" That's just a lame excuse
Yup I just dont f*****g Care! Uhhh I got a degree in something brand new so its relevant. Men are going to say something if you keep bringing this s**t up! its like racism, I was taught to not be that way, same with being a feminist. If I see a 90 year old black woman; shes just a 90 year old woman who I have to respect because shes f*****g lived longer than most people.
Thanks for blathering your irrelevancy. And your idiocy.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Agreed entirely
There is a common hashtag that usually pops up on south African Twitter trends. Men are Trash. I ignore it, but it becomes a problem when that phrase is thrown at you even in conversations that are not about gender. they are being used by some women in making sure men don't even have a voice in some things.
anyone who says someone is trash, is actually trash themselves. I have to be careful how to respond, as i dont want to be all "not all women" (and having the shoe on the other foot is educational, having to think about how I come across, just as the same request is being made to males in this very article!)
I have several male friends who feel as though women are constantly looking at them as human trash because they are men. It has gotten to the point where some of my male friends don't want to participate in women issues because "what's the point man and am obviously wrong no matter what!" Which is very unfortunate.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Your friends sound like idiots.
QBFT: what?! You are here frustrated that men dismiss women and their opinions, that they are so hostile; can you not see you are firing your guns in the wrong direction, in my opinion anyway. This, again in my opinion only, is a reasonable and fair expression. To protect ourselves from the irritation of the negative notallmen ppl, we might have the tendency to gatekeep out of an instinct to prevent hearing this toxic stuff; an understandable but unhelpful response as it slices away those who support us. Did men not march alongside women as they sought the vote, even though a great many more stood against women? Did those suffragetes tell them it wasn't their business? No, and we know that the suffragetes bore the mantle of fighting for the vote, so women were not usurped by the support of legitimately decent men
Agreed that women were not usurped by the support of legitimately decent men. Bring on all the decent men, I say. But the Mac's friends "don't want to participate in women's issues" due to, it sounds like, their fragility. They've given up. They're not useful allies. Why have they given up? Because they feel women look at them as trash. Do women look at them like trash? Seems unlikely to me. Hard to know for sure as I, thankfully, don't know Mac's friends but maybe they had a bad experience with a woman or women. Instead of learning from that, perhaps they chose to just give up - their fragile masculinity couldn't handle a woman speaking against them. If they want to be decent men like you suggest, and allies, then I think they need to put more effort in to engage, rather than dissociating from it.
Qbft: point heard and understood :) I think mac engaging in this dialogue is an effort to engage genuinely: I somewhat overlooked how he(I'm assuming) phrased the part about his friends. Wording is a bitch! But I'm glad we could have a chat about it productively, and I have a new angle to ponder for my metaphor :D
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Yes, maybe Mac himself (he self identifies as a man in another post) is engaging with the issues - but as you're speaking about wording, I do find the way he words things very interesting - not so much in this post, which is carefully worded ("friends who FEEL that...") but in another post below, where he says he's been ostracised from conversations for being a man who wanted to understand. I find it interesting he uses very active language, saying he wants to "participate", and he complains that when he "tries to speak" and he wants "to be heard", he is dismissed. I find it very interesting it's all about him doing, him speaking, and not him listening or him hearing. Again, it's hard to know what really happened from just his pov, but I find, from his language, it equally if not more likely that he tried to talk over women and dominate this supposed conversation and that wasn't well received, than he was unfairly excluded by rude women.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
To be clear, we'll never know what really happened in that conversation. But the way he phrases his involvement is interesting. And regardless, if you're trying to get involved in a conversation where you're not wanted, you don't always need to blame person who cuts you out for being unreasonable. Look in the mirror first: have you done or said something that led them to cut you out of the conversation? Why doesnt this person feel comfortable with you being a participant? Is it them, or is it you? And whoever it is, respect consent. If they don't consent to you being in this conversation, that's their right.
As to the conversation I was ostracized from, it was a conversation about abortion and women's rights. It was between a group of co-workers/friends and other acquaintances. In short I have a particular view on abortion. If you really want to know what that is ASK. Don't assume you know because of my use of language or because you saw me identify as male in another post. In short part of my view challenged some of the women in the group and rather than challenge my view with reason they used the penis card. Because I have a penis rather than a vagina I cannot possibly comprehend the intricacies women's rights and abortion. They like you thought they had me figured out simply because I have a penis. In essence they were saying ALL MEN ARE THE SAME. =( This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened to me or to other men. I guess I just have a thicker skin than most and have not begun to believe that I am incapable of understanding because I have a penis. Maybe someday I will.
First off you need to "read between the lines" waaaay less. Second, rather than call my friends idiots. You could have just asked why they feel the way they do? Instead you immediately assumed they had fragile male egos that can't handle strong women. That is the kind of mentality that often keeps men from engaging in the first place! They feel like women look at them as trash because of the plethora of social media that essential demonize men has told them that they are trash. After a while that sort of thing can break a person. And so some of my friends have been broken and they could care less about womens issues now. Not that they were pillars of womens right before or anything but they certainly are never going to be now. It's like if you tell someone long enough that they are useless after a while they then start to believe they actually are useless.
I hear what you are saying. I have literally been told in a conversation that I can't understand because I am a man. So basically, I was told to F off because I was a man in a conversation amongst women that I genuinely wanted to participate in and hopefully learn something.
Mac: this is unsurprising, which saddens me to say. But you are speaking level-headedly (excuse shocking grammar), despite having come across some seemingly scathing toxicity. And you persist, with a dogged politeness, in an effort to be heard, to learn, to have a real conversation. This is excellent that you are this open to learning; conversely it is frustrating that you are coming across obstacles. What I find truly refreshing is your lack of hostility, despite having received it yourself.
Yeah, imagine not having a voice, how awful that would be...