A Gay Man Explains The Ridiculous Double Standards Women Experience From His Perspective
With the help of #MeToo movement, a problem we all knew about but rarely discussed has gained a lot more traction. Yet, whenever the conversation turns about sexual violence, many people still try to shift the blame from assailant to the victim. Therefore, many victims are left with, probably, much bigger guilt then the attacker, after having their behavior, choices, lifestyle and especially clothing questioned in an attempt to find out how they have might have provoked the attack. (Facebook cover image: Gareth Williams)
A writer and an activist Josh Weed took to Twitter to address the issue of ‘modesty culture’ that drives victim blaming even further
Image credits: The_Weed
Modesty culture suggests that women must dress in a certain way so they won’t provoke a sexual response in men. In an attempt to disprove this believe Josh raises an important question: who is responsible for their own desires – a person who’s experiencing them or people who surround him?
Well, the answer may not be so obvious to people who try to reinforce ‘modesty culture’ as a preventable measure against sexual violence.
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Josh goes to explain how ridiculous this responsibility shift is by offering his own experience. As a gay man, he has never felt that he has a right to control the clothing choices of other men because he might be arounsed by them.
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Then he goes on to explain how damaging this sort of victim-blaming is. Telling people how to dress does not prevent them from being assaulted and it is proven to be harmful. Victims who have experienced sexual violence suffer from secondary trauma when they endure victim blaming.
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Image credits: The_Weed
Josh’s well-put explanation of why women’s clothing has nothing to do with sexual violence was well received and praised by other users. Some thank him for stating so clearly what they had been thinking the whole time, others reveal how eye-opening it was for them to read it.
Here’s how people reacted
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Share on FacebookThe swedish lawyer Elisabeth Massi Fritz got fed up with her clients getting asked about their underwear they were wearing when they were raped. So this is what she did: "I asked the perpetrator to describe their underwear in a questioning and was asked what importance these have in the case. My answer was 'as important as my client's string panties'." So please, tell every lawyer you know to do the same. What underwear a woman wears is only a concern for herself.
I agree - any rape case should ask what underwear the suspect was wearing at the time - read something about this - there were some weird things. Like - eww - leggings with "specific" cut-outs
Load More Replies...Cannot upvote this enough. Why should someone else's lack of control be my responsibility? I can dress frumpy and it's still possible that a man will be aroused by something. The goddamn wind can blow and a man can be aroused, yet I should be able to successfully mitigate the effects of that? News flash women don't usually succeed despite the "steps" that they take to protect themselves and yet it's still somehow their fault.
Women in their '80s get raped. Coma patients get raped. Physically disabled people get raped. Mentally disabled people get raped at a higher rate than just about any other group. ...///... Rape is 100% the fault of the rapist. There is no debate. Anyone who makes excuses for rapists deserves a smack on the face with a dead salmon and to sleep in the garage forever.
Load More Replies...Amen. This has also baffled me for a long time, about how the victim of assault is somehow seen as being 'responsible' for it. I could also never understand just why many men seem incapable of controlling themselves, yet they want to control everything else around them instead. And if something or someone doesn't obey them, they get angry, and often violent. Then the victim somehow gets the blame for it, despite it being because of his lack of control. No excuses for those who can't control their own arousal. It's their fault, no one else's.
Well and the idiots here like John and his buddies are telling us that they're too stupid and weak to keep it in their pants. Given that they're a bunch or MRA incels who hate women and feel entitled to them, you'd think they'd stop insulting themselves, but I guess they're too stupid to see that.
Load More Replies...He is 100% when it comes to rape culture and it is the man's responsibility to control his actions. That being said, he also said that he may have been aroused and didn't act on it. That's exactly another point. What you wear may arouse a man, so you may catch him looking at you, but that doesn't make a guy a pervert or predator, but it also doesn't make catcalling and things like that acceptable.
I think if this were more clear to people then both genders would get it more. People are going to look at and internally react to what you look like. That’s part of how we decide how to present ourselves. But clothing doesn’t take away a person’s right to not be harassed. It’s so obvious that I feel redundant even typing it out.
Load More Replies...I adore this man! He's a hero, and the perfect person to be raising daughters.
@date - Nope. You need to reread what you said. You essentially told us that if your daughters don't toe your line, they're going to get raped and they deserve it. You are a sick little puppy.
Load More Replies...He made a very good point. What many people need to learn these days is a bit of self control. Not only in men vs. women relationship, but in any social relationships in general.
Rape isn’t about loss of control, but the exercise of control.
Load More Replies...Once my family was visiting this family with some boys. It was EXTREMELY hot, so hot that school was canceled that day, so I naturally chose to wear a tank top. My grandmother and mother of forced me to change. My mother's exact words were, "They have boys, they might not appreciate if you wear something so revealing"
Pretty messed up... guys can walk around shirtless, and nobody bats an eye. But if a girl wears a tank top, or a sports bra, everybody loses their minds. I remember our school being real sticklers about girls not wearing tank tops, even when it was just sweltering outside. They'd force you to wear (often dark!) t-shirts instead, and several girls would get dehydrated and / or heat exhaustion every year because of it. All because 'it would distract the boys'.
Load More Replies...Not only we need to dress modestly to not be called sluts and be molested. Aparently the worth of a woman is also correlated to her atractiveness, so if you dress too modestly you are a prude or a tomboy. So we are suposed to be hot but just not hot enough that men wants to rape us...The worth of a person is determined by her choices, by how you treat others. It has nothing to do with your looks.
Except men will rape anything with a hole, regardless of what they/it looks like.
Load More Replies...His words should be printed out on an official signed document and become the law. Seriously.
It is already against the law to assault people. Why is it so hard to get rapists convicted. Why do something like 80 -90 % of rape survivors NOT report it ?
Load More Replies...Very well put! THANK YOU--it doesn't matter how it is brought to light (man vs woman), what matters is that people start listening, thinking and taking responsibility for their own feelings (of arousal/inadequacies, whatever). STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE!
My kids go to a catholic school. The girls are not allowed to wear short-shorts and tank tops with spaghetti straps to school. The boys are not allowed to wear shirts with bad stuff on them (weed, swears, violent stuff, etc.). It's built into their earliest experiences that what they wear matters. Who knows what the person's or committee's exact thought processes were when they came up with this rule, but I doubt they asked the parents. I was never asked. If it's because they think pre-teen junior high boys will be too distracted to work with cute, scantily clad girls next to them, I am pretty sure they are going to be distracted no matter what - on both sides of the fence, because girls have sexual feelings too. They are teenagers, it's normal! I am glad that at least my son thinks it's a stupid rule for the girls and recognizes there is a double standard that is unfair.
There was a line on Buffy once that went something like, "I'm a 16-year-old boy. Linoleum makes me horny!"
Load More Replies...He's completely right. It seems like it starts even in grade school. Dress codes have been explained the same way, to prevent "distractions". It's telling kids from a young age that same wrong message; that the responsibility is on the the one who caused the distraction. The kid who should get in trouble is the one who got distracted not the one minding their own business.
This ought to be required reading not only in law school but also in high school!
Seems to me that those who aim to dictate the dress standards of strangers are saying "if you show too much skin or wear something tight or provocative, it doesnt arouse ME personally, but it might arouse others". When has a person said "They shouldn't wear that, because it arouses me too much and I might not be able to control myself as a result."
So what if other people get aroused? Nothing happens! Everyone gets aroused. You can’t spend your life worrying about what goes on in other people’s heads.
Load More Replies...All male judges and politicians should be trained to learn this. Too many judges blame the women and give their rapists a lesser sentence because she was wearing thong underwear, so she must have wanted it. Or it was her choice to get that drunk, she should have been more aware of her surroundings. And male politicians are trying to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It's enraging.
I think men should have to be as modest as women. If a woman should have to cover up while breastfeeding, that wrinkly old geezer should put on a shirt so I don't confuse him for a walking leather sofa. If a woman can't walk down the street topless on a hot day, neither can that guy with sweaty, hairy back fat. And if a woman decides to wear a dress and heels when she goes dancing, I should be able to approach the guys who called her a s**t, and kick them so hard in the nuts their ancestors will feel it.
In Ontario, it's legal for women to be topless in public.
Load More Replies...I grew up in that kind of thinking/culture too. I was told to 'go back and change because...'. Well,it doesn't matter if one is young or old, wears sackcloth, hijab, bikini or even paralyzed and unconscious [recent shocking news] a woman would still be assaulted BECAUSE a MAN thinks he could just blame it on whatever ridiculous reason he thinks made him do it! MEN, get your act together because the women on this planet are getting sick and tired of being blamed for something that is not even our fault.
of course i will have to praise this thread, but there's some detail i'd like to throw on the table - this modesty thing, i feel like it can be some kind of scapegoat attempt. as many of you noticed, there is no real correlation between a woman's dress/looks and rape: young, middle age, old, tomboy, sexy, dressed, covered, undressed... doesn't really matter. as a matter of fact, i don't believe rape is about rapists not being able to handle/control themselves when aroused - it's about not being able to handle their lust for power/control over their victim. a rapist is not necessarily attracted by his/her victim, most of times he's just trying to prove himself his strenght or power. which he lacks much, violence being the only means he can find to prove it.
I have to admit, I am getting to 'that' age where I am seriously considering the 'f**k it, say it and see what happens' attitude, my first thing I'm having trouble with not saying is, "Put a shirt on, you slapper!" to guys out in public half naked. Send thoughts and prayers people, my resolve is starting to weaken...
Okay but guys should be allowed to be out in public shirtless without getting harrassed for it. Fat guys, trans guys, whatever, they should all be allowed to be shirtless outside without getting judged or harrassed by women or other guys. Women should be allowed to be shirtless outside too, but our society sucks.
Load More Replies...I totally agree with him. It’s all so obvious that it’s just too simple to have to type out. As if “don’t rape” isn’t the standard. But in the minds of some people I guess it’s not. Anyway I’m over caring about this issue. I’ll wear what I want, you can look all you want. It’s your eyes. It’s my body. Say some trashy s**t to me or touch me and I’ll show you how sexism can work in the opposite direction. I’ll be the damsel, you be the scary ogre monster the whole world hates.
It doesn't matter what a woman is wearing if a man assaults her. It is equally his fault regardless of whether she is in sweats or a string bikini. That said, I think common sense also applies; if you're alone, in a strange city, after dark, it might be sensible to not dress to attract too much attention. Totally your choice, but men being what they are, as much as they do need to change and it is their fault; dressing provocatively might mark you as a target for the criminally inclined men of the world. I wish the world wasn't like it is, and women were safer, but a little caution can still be advised... Even though women get assaulted in all manner of clothes and situations.
the sadder thing is a lot of WOMEN accuse and judge other women for this. My best friend does this all the time and it is so hard to change her mind, even though she is a beautiful kind woman, but she would judge other women as indecent if they dress too revealing.
Finally!!!!! the truth.. As for the women who wear burkers. They make me think of Christmas presents. and men fantasizes about unwrapping them. the young men and some of the older men do not like to own responsibility for their actions..So blame the women.. this man is wonderful. we need to have more adult men [mentally and emotionally] speak up..
And this is the reason I have a problem with claims that religious “modest“ clothing for women is somehow feminist. It's not. It's part of this very same kind of thinking that male arousal is somehow the woman's responsibility.
It doesn't have a thing to so with what a women is wearing. I am not sure what a man is thinking sometimes, but its almost like they think they have the right to approach any woman and do and say anything unprovoked. When I was young, I was driving alone in my car. It was summer mid afternoon and I had the windows down. I was stopped at a traffic light and in my rearview mirror I saw a man in the car behind me get out and approach my car. There were 3 or 4 men in that car. Now, I always carry a mini Louisville slugger in my car. Thisguy put his hand on my door im pretty sure I broke his hand, because as soon as he laid it on my door I pounded it with my bat. I drove off through the light watching the man hold his hand. If some man or woman has bad intentions it doesn't matter what you are wearing. They probably picked you out ahead of time as a target. Don't be a target, be prepared So...wear what you want, but keep your eyes open and pay attention to your surroundings.
As a girl, I really appreciate what this man is saying UwU. But this is my personal opinion, please don't hate me for this, I think there's a healthy limit for everything. Too much of something is bad. What I mean by saying this is that I believe a woman can wear whatever she wants and a man should have no excuses and he needs to control his desires. However, a woman shouldn't .... like, you know, bear it all or go topless without expecting a few stares. Just that one thing. There will always be people who will look. So if you don't appreciate unwanted looks... like, cover the bare minimum at least
The stares aren’t the problem though. It’s the words and the actions. People can look. But they have no right to bother you in any way.
Load More Replies...It is actually worse than this. Every time when an (sexual) attack on a women was reported at the end a police man would say "women should do this /that to avoid being in those situations." Example on a walking track "they were wearing headphones and not aware of their surroundings"...this is recently in Australia._________ So women and girls become more and more afraid.
Any past or future victim / survivor hears this sort of thing and tries to work out what she did wrong to deserve the attack. Write / email / phone your where you get your news from. *every* single time they do this sort of thing. PLEASE. - it actually can help.
Load More Replies...The most interesting reaction was about the catch-22, that if you do dress revealing 'you're asking for it' and if you're dressed modest your called frumpy... that's so weird. And it's just as Josh Weed says, I (as a heterosexual woman) also see men without shirts in the summer, and some a very yummy, but I've never considered to tell them to put a shirt on because they're dressed slutty and are 'asking for it'. Never crossed my mind, maybe I should start this, coming summer.
I couldn't have said it better! Recently had an argument about this with a dude who didn't understand my point of view neither from the a*s or the head! Some people really need to wake the hell up! Thanks for this, I'm sure you helped a lot of people with it.
I have always felt this way, however, I have taught my daughter to cover up because of this issue. He has opened my eyes to a different level and this should be put back on the man. Thank you for your input and view on this, it has opened my eyes to a different level and I appreciate it.
Are there many men who do that still in the US? I've worn a variety of clothing and no one has ever commented, catcalled or given me a second glance.
Rape is almost universally a heinous crime that is basically permitted. In some countries, the rape victim can be jailed for extramarital sex and in many countries, she may be thrown out of her family, ostracised for being the victim. Few rapes get reported to the police. When a rape is reported, the total burden of proof falls on the victim. A huge majority of cases lets the rapist go free. Unless more men start screaming RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTED most men will continue hearing (by lazy choice) only the whimpering of PC oversensitive feminists. Please, all of you reading this, if you are a man, start a discussion about it with your male friends, and if you are a woman, tell your boyfriend, husband, brother, dad etc, to talk about it with their male friends.
"..... whimpering of PC oversensitive feminists...." is indeed part of the problem. Please call out the news managers every time they allow "..women should do this to avoid being raped"....or she "...she was wearing..." Demand they report rape they same way they report other assaults ( on men ) .
Load More Replies...When much younger, I got the "I'm in pain! You have to have sex with me." My response became - go sit in a corner and jack off for pete's sake. The surprise lasted long enough for me to get away from the idiot.
WAY TO GO Man. This is certainly one of the reasons gay men are considered to be such safe friends for women. I will share this. Thank you.
And...........you've just described the fundamental problem with many Islamic cultures and specifically the hijab.
Keep in mind, this is mostly a problem in places where sexuality is demonized and/or highly constricted socially. I'm thinking about nude beaches in Europe where men women and children of all ages feel comfortable walking around buck naked, you don't hear stories about raging incels running around the beach trying to rape the girls simply because they're naked. People have a far more mature attitude toward the body so it's not a big deal seeing a 14 year old sunbathing naked. Here people would be foaming at the mouth or screaming religious nonsense at the sight. So it's not about the body, it's all in the mindset of this country.
AMEN to everything he said. I have always though this as well. Like the women who have to wear head to toe covering because men cant control their impulses? How backwards is that, and can't believe it still happening today. I will NEVER forget a video I saw of a elderly lady who accidentally showed her hand and some evil police or whatever he was shot her in the head even after her family pleaded not to. it was so horrific.
If we live in a world where little girls are taught that it's their responsibility to feed and care for their husbands, you better believe it's the same world where we tell them they are responsible for being raped. I was accused and beaten up by a woman who was claiming her husband was cheating on her with me, just because I loved looking pretty, wearing makeup at work. I was 22 and still a virgin. So remember that it's men who blame women, but it's also women who blame women. Our voices are always silenced, our opinion is never truly important. We exist to make men happy. And when we don't oblige, we are called sluts, we're raped, beaten up or called lazy. This world will never change, unfortunately.
Whether an article of clothing is provocative or not depends totally on who is wearing it and how they wear it. You can't paint every woman in a short skirt with the same brush. Even if she has piano legs, there'll be that one guy who thinks that's sexy.
The only problem with modesty culture is that it targets women. It should be both men and women. The issue is not clothes but attitude, what you express by the way you dress. More and more people want to catch attention on their skin and shapes than on who they are and more and more people define themselves only by their skin and shapes at young age. And more and more people recognize themselves selfishly to each other in their commoun narcissist/photogenic desire & attitude. Feelings of arousness is something everyone have to manage even if it is not formally tought. But what does that mean to someone who already have his award, his satisfaction? That is cynical. The fact is that we live in a culture of arousal, constant arousal, that is now deeper and that doesn't rely only on clothes but on what the society permits to diffuse. We demand people to get used to it, to accept it as if all that make no harm and because it pleases to the mass. It should please to you too.
I see a typo in the article, where can I mention this ? :) I can see the author profile but no "contact" button ! """much bigger guilt then the""" → """much bigger guilt thAn the """
There's more to the story. On his Facebook, this guy says that... he's gay but he's also a Mormon and he is married to "the girl of her dreams"! If that's the case, then this guy is really good at what he's talking about - "controlling your instincts".
He's not controlling his instincts, he's suppressing them. I feel incredibly bad for gay Mormons who force themselves into heterosexual relationships. That's some next level mental torture.
Load More Replies...It’s not too far removed from the logic used during the Inquisition when Inquisitors would get an erection overseeing the torture of a suspected witch. The torture being done was to almost always a naked female and centered around her lady parts. The Inquisitor, being celibate of course, reasoned that she must be a witch because “only a witch would be able to cause a Holy Inquisitor of the Church to become erect and excited”.
I don't know where you got this from, but this is nonsense. There were strict rules how people should be tortured. And about 40 percent of the accused were men.
Load More Replies...OK hold up - [1] Equating valuing modesty with sanctioning rape is a major straw-man; these are NOT the same thing. Same goes for inherent worth. [2] There is a difference between arousal and action. Sexual arousal is a natural consequence of certain stimuli and is far from voluntary, for men or women. Generalizing, visual stimuli produce greater arousal in men, whereas women respond more to touch. [3] Valuing modesty is not about rape, it’s about respect. Recognizing that there are *ways* in which unwanted visual stimulation for men parallels unwanted touch for women in terms of the involuntary arousal response it produces, many women choose, out of respect, to avoid dressing in ways that are likely to produce such involuntary arousal, especially in contexts where it is unexpected. This is similar in concept to avoiding or warning for psychological triggers, or abstaining from alcohol in the company of a recovering alcoholic friend (yes, sexual arousal is addictive).
“Generalizing, visual stimuli produce greater arousal in men, whereas women respond more to touch. ”. Not generalising so much as talking nonsense.
Load More Replies...I can't believe that I'm reading this in the 21st century. I miss the 60's in Paris... F#©k that brand new world!
When I lived in Paris in the 90s, I had my breast grabbed (wearing a sweater), my vulva grabbed (wearing jeans), I was spat on, followed for hours, whistled at, grabbed and scratched. A man hopped across the metro line to ask for my number. A man in his late 60s asked me if I wanted to have sex because we made eye-contact. As a woman, Paris was no f*****g wonderland.
Load More Replies...Can I please have back my "Bored Panda - art, wholesome memes and cute animals"? This "Bored Panda - SJW" is getting annoying.
Also, the western world does not have a modesty problem, check out the difference between little boy and girl clothes sometime, girls clothes are quite often tighter, shorter and far more revealing, nope it is a society problem that we are teaching our children to be sexual too young
I have something more ridiculous to tell you all: all of you are expecting respect from total strangers. All his twits up there? Those is "his point of view". All the comments here? These are "your point of view". Now let me ask you, is this those "strangers' point of view"??
Load More Replies...How about I dress provocatively and you just still don’t talk to me, touch me or bother me? Like if you can’t hanfle that, don’t blame evolution. Blame yourself. If men walked around with your muscles and d**k prints bulging everywhere, nobody would give a s**t. At all. They might look or whisper to their friends about it but that’s only if you’re very attractive. Stop trying to decide what WE wear because YOU are horny. Most grown a*s men have had enough pussy by now that it’s not even that impressive anymore. Stop being a simp. A worthwhile man isn’t going to be drooling and uncomfortable at every single hot girl, like you’ve never seen that before.
Load More Replies...And that’s the perpetuation of sexism by women. You put responsibility on your daughter instead of the world. A seatbelt in the car is only in the car. You’re teaching your kid that she has to be afraid everywhere. Not just on a dark street at night but everywhere. I know you’re probably a great mom and person, but this is a mistake in your thinking.
Load More Replies...But those women WANT to show off their bodies because they're proud and confident in them. Modesty/sparse clothing doesn't determine your success.
Load More Replies...Just because you're too stupid to realize that you're insulting yourself... Wow. Don't you have a reddit to get to?
Load More Replies...The swedish lawyer Elisabeth Massi Fritz got fed up with her clients getting asked about their underwear they were wearing when they were raped. So this is what she did: "I asked the perpetrator to describe their underwear in a questioning and was asked what importance these have in the case. My answer was 'as important as my client's string panties'." So please, tell every lawyer you know to do the same. What underwear a woman wears is only a concern for herself.
I agree - any rape case should ask what underwear the suspect was wearing at the time - read something about this - there were some weird things. Like - eww - leggings with "specific" cut-outs
Load More Replies...Cannot upvote this enough. Why should someone else's lack of control be my responsibility? I can dress frumpy and it's still possible that a man will be aroused by something. The goddamn wind can blow and a man can be aroused, yet I should be able to successfully mitigate the effects of that? News flash women don't usually succeed despite the "steps" that they take to protect themselves and yet it's still somehow their fault.
Women in their '80s get raped. Coma patients get raped. Physically disabled people get raped. Mentally disabled people get raped at a higher rate than just about any other group. ...///... Rape is 100% the fault of the rapist. There is no debate. Anyone who makes excuses for rapists deserves a smack on the face with a dead salmon and to sleep in the garage forever.
Load More Replies...Amen. This has also baffled me for a long time, about how the victim of assault is somehow seen as being 'responsible' for it. I could also never understand just why many men seem incapable of controlling themselves, yet they want to control everything else around them instead. And if something or someone doesn't obey them, they get angry, and often violent. Then the victim somehow gets the blame for it, despite it being because of his lack of control. No excuses for those who can't control their own arousal. It's their fault, no one else's.
Well and the idiots here like John and his buddies are telling us that they're too stupid and weak to keep it in their pants. Given that they're a bunch or MRA incels who hate women and feel entitled to them, you'd think they'd stop insulting themselves, but I guess they're too stupid to see that.
Load More Replies...He is 100% when it comes to rape culture and it is the man's responsibility to control his actions. That being said, he also said that he may have been aroused and didn't act on it. That's exactly another point. What you wear may arouse a man, so you may catch him looking at you, but that doesn't make a guy a pervert or predator, but it also doesn't make catcalling and things like that acceptable.
I think if this were more clear to people then both genders would get it more. People are going to look at and internally react to what you look like. That’s part of how we decide how to present ourselves. But clothing doesn’t take away a person’s right to not be harassed. It’s so obvious that I feel redundant even typing it out.
Load More Replies...I adore this man! He's a hero, and the perfect person to be raising daughters.
@date - Nope. You need to reread what you said. You essentially told us that if your daughters don't toe your line, they're going to get raped and they deserve it. You are a sick little puppy.
Load More Replies...He made a very good point. What many people need to learn these days is a bit of self control. Not only in men vs. women relationship, but in any social relationships in general.
Rape isn’t about loss of control, but the exercise of control.
Load More Replies...Once my family was visiting this family with some boys. It was EXTREMELY hot, so hot that school was canceled that day, so I naturally chose to wear a tank top. My grandmother and mother of forced me to change. My mother's exact words were, "They have boys, they might not appreciate if you wear something so revealing"
Pretty messed up... guys can walk around shirtless, and nobody bats an eye. But if a girl wears a tank top, or a sports bra, everybody loses their minds. I remember our school being real sticklers about girls not wearing tank tops, even when it was just sweltering outside. They'd force you to wear (often dark!) t-shirts instead, and several girls would get dehydrated and / or heat exhaustion every year because of it. All because 'it would distract the boys'.
Load More Replies...Not only we need to dress modestly to not be called sluts and be molested. Aparently the worth of a woman is also correlated to her atractiveness, so if you dress too modestly you are a prude or a tomboy. So we are suposed to be hot but just not hot enough that men wants to rape us...The worth of a person is determined by her choices, by how you treat others. It has nothing to do with your looks.
Except men will rape anything with a hole, regardless of what they/it looks like.
Load More Replies...His words should be printed out on an official signed document and become the law. Seriously.
It is already against the law to assault people. Why is it so hard to get rapists convicted. Why do something like 80 -90 % of rape survivors NOT report it ?
Load More Replies...Very well put! THANK YOU--it doesn't matter how it is brought to light (man vs woman), what matters is that people start listening, thinking and taking responsibility for their own feelings (of arousal/inadequacies, whatever). STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE!
My kids go to a catholic school. The girls are not allowed to wear short-shorts and tank tops with spaghetti straps to school. The boys are not allowed to wear shirts with bad stuff on them (weed, swears, violent stuff, etc.). It's built into their earliest experiences that what they wear matters. Who knows what the person's or committee's exact thought processes were when they came up with this rule, but I doubt they asked the parents. I was never asked. If it's because they think pre-teen junior high boys will be too distracted to work with cute, scantily clad girls next to them, I am pretty sure they are going to be distracted no matter what - on both sides of the fence, because girls have sexual feelings too. They are teenagers, it's normal! I am glad that at least my son thinks it's a stupid rule for the girls and recognizes there is a double standard that is unfair.
There was a line on Buffy once that went something like, "I'm a 16-year-old boy. Linoleum makes me horny!"
Load More Replies...He's completely right. It seems like it starts even in grade school. Dress codes have been explained the same way, to prevent "distractions". It's telling kids from a young age that same wrong message; that the responsibility is on the the one who caused the distraction. The kid who should get in trouble is the one who got distracted not the one minding their own business.
This ought to be required reading not only in law school but also in high school!
Seems to me that those who aim to dictate the dress standards of strangers are saying "if you show too much skin or wear something tight or provocative, it doesnt arouse ME personally, but it might arouse others". When has a person said "They shouldn't wear that, because it arouses me too much and I might not be able to control myself as a result."
So what if other people get aroused? Nothing happens! Everyone gets aroused. You can’t spend your life worrying about what goes on in other people’s heads.
Load More Replies...All male judges and politicians should be trained to learn this. Too many judges blame the women and give their rapists a lesser sentence because she was wearing thong underwear, so she must have wanted it. Or it was her choice to get that drunk, she should have been more aware of her surroundings. And male politicians are trying to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It's enraging.
I think men should have to be as modest as women. If a woman should have to cover up while breastfeeding, that wrinkly old geezer should put on a shirt so I don't confuse him for a walking leather sofa. If a woman can't walk down the street topless on a hot day, neither can that guy with sweaty, hairy back fat. And if a woman decides to wear a dress and heels when she goes dancing, I should be able to approach the guys who called her a s**t, and kick them so hard in the nuts their ancestors will feel it.
In Ontario, it's legal for women to be topless in public.
Load More Replies...I grew up in that kind of thinking/culture too. I was told to 'go back and change because...'. Well,it doesn't matter if one is young or old, wears sackcloth, hijab, bikini or even paralyzed and unconscious [recent shocking news] a woman would still be assaulted BECAUSE a MAN thinks he could just blame it on whatever ridiculous reason he thinks made him do it! MEN, get your act together because the women on this planet are getting sick and tired of being blamed for something that is not even our fault.
of course i will have to praise this thread, but there's some detail i'd like to throw on the table - this modesty thing, i feel like it can be some kind of scapegoat attempt. as many of you noticed, there is no real correlation between a woman's dress/looks and rape: young, middle age, old, tomboy, sexy, dressed, covered, undressed... doesn't really matter. as a matter of fact, i don't believe rape is about rapists not being able to handle/control themselves when aroused - it's about not being able to handle their lust for power/control over their victim. a rapist is not necessarily attracted by his/her victim, most of times he's just trying to prove himself his strenght or power. which he lacks much, violence being the only means he can find to prove it.
I have to admit, I am getting to 'that' age where I am seriously considering the 'f**k it, say it and see what happens' attitude, my first thing I'm having trouble with not saying is, "Put a shirt on, you slapper!" to guys out in public half naked. Send thoughts and prayers people, my resolve is starting to weaken...
Okay but guys should be allowed to be out in public shirtless without getting harrassed for it. Fat guys, trans guys, whatever, they should all be allowed to be shirtless outside without getting judged or harrassed by women or other guys. Women should be allowed to be shirtless outside too, but our society sucks.
Load More Replies...I totally agree with him. It’s all so obvious that it’s just too simple to have to type out. As if “don’t rape” isn’t the standard. But in the minds of some people I guess it’s not. Anyway I’m over caring about this issue. I’ll wear what I want, you can look all you want. It’s your eyes. It’s my body. Say some trashy s**t to me or touch me and I’ll show you how sexism can work in the opposite direction. I’ll be the damsel, you be the scary ogre monster the whole world hates.
It doesn't matter what a woman is wearing if a man assaults her. It is equally his fault regardless of whether she is in sweats or a string bikini. That said, I think common sense also applies; if you're alone, in a strange city, after dark, it might be sensible to not dress to attract too much attention. Totally your choice, but men being what they are, as much as they do need to change and it is their fault; dressing provocatively might mark you as a target for the criminally inclined men of the world. I wish the world wasn't like it is, and women were safer, but a little caution can still be advised... Even though women get assaulted in all manner of clothes and situations.
the sadder thing is a lot of WOMEN accuse and judge other women for this. My best friend does this all the time and it is so hard to change her mind, even though she is a beautiful kind woman, but she would judge other women as indecent if they dress too revealing.
Finally!!!!! the truth.. As for the women who wear burkers. They make me think of Christmas presents. and men fantasizes about unwrapping them. the young men and some of the older men do not like to own responsibility for their actions..So blame the women.. this man is wonderful. we need to have more adult men [mentally and emotionally] speak up..
And this is the reason I have a problem with claims that religious “modest“ clothing for women is somehow feminist. It's not. It's part of this very same kind of thinking that male arousal is somehow the woman's responsibility.
It doesn't have a thing to so with what a women is wearing. I am not sure what a man is thinking sometimes, but its almost like they think they have the right to approach any woman and do and say anything unprovoked. When I was young, I was driving alone in my car. It was summer mid afternoon and I had the windows down. I was stopped at a traffic light and in my rearview mirror I saw a man in the car behind me get out and approach my car. There were 3 or 4 men in that car. Now, I always carry a mini Louisville slugger in my car. Thisguy put his hand on my door im pretty sure I broke his hand, because as soon as he laid it on my door I pounded it with my bat. I drove off through the light watching the man hold his hand. If some man or woman has bad intentions it doesn't matter what you are wearing. They probably picked you out ahead of time as a target. Don't be a target, be prepared So...wear what you want, but keep your eyes open and pay attention to your surroundings.
As a girl, I really appreciate what this man is saying UwU. But this is my personal opinion, please don't hate me for this, I think there's a healthy limit for everything. Too much of something is bad. What I mean by saying this is that I believe a woman can wear whatever she wants and a man should have no excuses and he needs to control his desires. However, a woman shouldn't .... like, you know, bear it all or go topless without expecting a few stares. Just that one thing. There will always be people who will look. So if you don't appreciate unwanted looks... like, cover the bare minimum at least
The stares aren’t the problem though. It’s the words and the actions. People can look. But they have no right to bother you in any way.
Load More Replies...It is actually worse than this. Every time when an (sexual) attack on a women was reported at the end a police man would say "women should do this /that to avoid being in those situations." Example on a walking track "they were wearing headphones and not aware of their surroundings"...this is recently in Australia._________ So women and girls become more and more afraid.
Any past or future victim / survivor hears this sort of thing and tries to work out what she did wrong to deserve the attack. Write / email / phone your where you get your news from. *every* single time they do this sort of thing. PLEASE. - it actually can help.
Load More Replies...The most interesting reaction was about the catch-22, that if you do dress revealing 'you're asking for it' and if you're dressed modest your called frumpy... that's so weird. And it's just as Josh Weed says, I (as a heterosexual woman) also see men without shirts in the summer, and some a very yummy, but I've never considered to tell them to put a shirt on because they're dressed slutty and are 'asking for it'. Never crossed my mind, maybe I should start this, coming summer.
I couldn't have said it better! Recently had an argument about this with a dude who didn't understand my point of view neither from the a*s or the head! Some people really need to wake the hell up! Thanks for this, I'm sure you helped a lot of people with it.
I have always felt this way, however, I have taught my daughter to cover up because of this issue. He has opened my eyes to a different level and this should be put back on the man. Thank you for your input and view on this, it has opened my eyes to a different level and I appreciate it.
Are there many men who do that still in the US? I've worn a variety of clothing and no one has ever commented, catcalled or given me a second glance.
Rape is almost universally a heinous crime that is basically permitted. In some countries, the rape victim can be jailed for extramarital sex and in many countries, she may be thrown out of her family, ostracised for being the victim. Few rapes get reported to the police. When a rape is reported, the total burden of proof falls on the victim. A huge majority of cases lets the rapist go free. Unless more men start screaming RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTED most men will continue hearing (by lazy choice) only the whimpering of PC oversensitive feminists. Please, all of you reading this, if you are a man, start a discussion about it with your male friends, and if you are a woman, tell your boyfriend, husband, brother, dad etc, to talk about it with their male friends.
"..... whimpering of PC oversensitive feminists...." is indeed part of the problem. Please call out the news managers every time they allow "..women should do this to avoid being raped"....or she "...she was wearing..." Demand they report rape they same way they report other assaults ( on men ) .
Load More Replies...When much younger, I got the "I'm in pain! You have to have sex with me." My response became - go sit in a corner and jack off for pete's sake. The surprise lasted long enough for me to get away from the idiot.
WAY TO GO Man. This is certainly one of the reasons gay men are considered to be such safe friends for women. I will share this. Thank you.
And...........you've just described the fundamental problem with many Islamic cultures and specifically the hijab.
Keep in mind, this is mostly a problem in places where sexuality is demonized and/or highly constricted socially. I'm thinking about nude beaches in Europe where men women and children of all ages feel comfortable walking around buck naked, you don't hear stories about raging incels running around the beach trying to rape the girls simply because they're naked. People have a far more mature attitude toward the body so it's not a big deal seeing a 14 year old sunbathing naked. Here people would be foaming at the mouth or screaming religious nonsense at the sight. So it's not about the body, it's all in the mindset of this country.
AMEN to everything he said. I have always though this as well. Like the women who have to wear head to toe covering because men cant control their impulses? How backwards is that, and can't believe it still happening today. I will NEVER forget a video I saw of a elderly lady who accidentally showed her hand and some evil police or whatever he was shot her in the head even after her family pleaded not to. it was so horrific.
If we live in a world where little girls are taught that it's their responsibility to feed and care for their husbands, you better believe it's the same world where we tell them they are responsible for being raped. I was accused and beaten up by a woman who was claiming her husband was cheating on her with me, just because I loved looking pretty, wearing makeup at work. I was 22 and still a virgin. So remember that it's men who blame women, but it's also women who blame women. Our voices are always silenced, our opinion is never truly important. We exist to make men happy. And when we don't oblige, we are called sluts, we're raped, beaten up or called lazy. This world will never change, unfortunately.
Whether an article of clothing is provocative or not depends totally on who is wearing it and how they wear it. You can't paint every woman in a short skirt with the same brush. Even if she has piano legs, there'll be that one guy who thinks that's sexy.
The only problem with modesty culture is that it targets women. It should be both men and women. The issue is not clothes but attitude, what you express by the way you dress. More and more people want to catch attention on their skin and shapes than on who they are and more and more people define themselves only by their skin and shapes at young age. And more and more people recognize themselves selfishly to each other in their commoun narcissist/photogenic desire & attitude. Feelings of arousness is something everyone have to manage even if it is not formally tought. But what does that mean to someone who already have his award, his satisfaction? That is cynical. The fact is that we live in a culture of arousal, constant arousal, that is now deeper and that doesn't rely only on clothes but on what the society permits to diffuse. We demand people to get used to it, to accept it as if all that make no harm and because it pleases to the mass. It should please to you too.
I see a typo in the article, where can I mention this ? :) I can see the author profile but no "contact" button ! """much bigger guilt then the""" → """much bigger guilt thAn the """
There's more to the story. On his Facebook, this guy says that... he's gay but he's also a Mormon and he is married to "the girl of her dreams"! If that's the case, then this guy is really good at what he's talking about - "controlling your instincts".
He's not controlling his instincts, he's suppressing them. I feel incredibly bad for gay Mormons who force themselves into heterosexual relationships. That's some next level mental torture.
Load More Replies...It’s not too far removed from the logic used during the Inquisition when Inquisitors would get an erection overseeing the torture of a suspected witch. The torture being done was to almost always a naked female and centered around her lady parts. The Inquisitor, being celibate of course, reasoned that she must be a witch because “only a witch would be able to cause a Holy Inquisitor of the Church to become erect and excited”.
I don't know where you got this from, but this is nonsense. There were strict rules how people should be tortured. And about 40 percent of the accused were men.
Load More Replies...OK hold up - [1] Equating valuing modesty with sanctioning rape is a major straw-man; these are NOT the same thing. Same goes for inherent worth. [2] There is a difference between arousal and action. Sexual arousal is a natural consequence of certain stimuli and is far from voluntary, for men or women. Generalizing, visual stimuli produce greater arousal in men, whereas women respond more to touch. [3] Valuing modesty is not about rape, it’s about respect. Recognizing that there are *ways* in which unwanted visual stimulation for men parallels unwanted touch for women in terms of the involuntary arousal response it produces, many women choose, out of respect, to avoid dressing in ways that are likely to produce such involuntary arousal, especially in contexts where it is unexpected. This is similar in concept to avoiding or warning for psychological triggers, or abstaining from alcohol in the company of a recovering alcoholic friend (yes, sexual arousal is addictive).
“Generalizing, visual stimuli produce greater arousal in men, whereas women respond more to touch. ”. Not generalising so much as talking nonsense.
Load More Replies...I can't believe that I'm reading this in the 21st century. I miss the 60's in Paris... F#©k that brand new world!
When I lived in Paris in the 90s, I had my breast grabbed (wearing a sweater), my vulva grabbed (wearing jeans), I was spat on, followed for hours, whistled at, grabbed and scratched. A man hopped across the metro line to ask for my number. A man in his late 60s asked me if I wanted to have sex because we made eye-contact. As a woman, Paris was no f*****g wonderland.
Load More Replies...Can I please have back my "Bored Panda - art, wholesome memes and cute animals"? This "Bored Panda - SJW" is getting annoying.
Also, the western world does not have a modesty problem, check out the difference between little boy and girl clothes sometime, girls clothes are quite often tighter, shorter and far more revealing, nope it is a society problem that we are teaching our children to be sexual too young
I have something more ridiculous to tell you all: all of you are expecting respect from total strangers. All his twits up there? Those is "his point of view". All the comments here? These are "your point of view". Now let me ask you, is this those "strangers' point of view"??
Load More Replies...How about I dress provocatively and you just still don’t talk to me, touch me or bother me? Like if you can’t hanfle that, don’t blame evolution. Blame yourself. If men walked around with your muscles and d**k prints bulging everywhere, nobody would give a s**t. At all. They might look or whisper to their friends about it but that’s only if you’re very attractive. Stop trying to decide what WE wear because YOU are horny. Most grown a*s men have had enough pussy by now that it’s not even that impressive anymore. Stop being a simp. A worthwhile man isn’t going to be drooling and uncomfortable at every single hot girl, like you’ve never seen that before.
Load More Replies...And that’s the perpetuation of sexism by women. You put responsibility on your daughter instead of the world. A seatbelt in the car is only in the car. You’re teaching your kid that she has to be afraid everywhere. Not just on a dark street at night but everywhere. I know you’re probably a great mom and person, but this is a mistake in your thinking.
Load More Replies...But those women WANT to show off their bodies because they're proud and confident in them. Modesty/sparse clothing doesn't determine your success.
Load More Replies...Just because you're too stupid to realize that you're insulting yourself... Wow. Don't you have a reddit to get to?
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