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Teen Starts Making Healthier School Lunches For Himself, Mom Demands He Do The Same For Siblings
Middle-aged woman with glasses expressing concern, illustrating mom guilt-trips son who makes lunch only for himself.
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Teen Starts Making Healthier School Lunches For Himself, Mom Demands He Do The Same For Siblings

Interview With Expert

52

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Children should always be able to rely on their parents for emotional and physical support, rather than being the ones providing it. However, sometimes it happens that kids are burdened with parental responsibilities without a way to refuse them. 

Fortunately, this teenager was able to firmly stand his ground when his mom demanded he start making healthier lunches for his siblings. She wasn’t happy about it and even called him a ‘selfish brat,’ but this didn’t waver his determination.

Scroll down to find the full story and conversation with a parent partner and certified life coach for teens and young adults, Jennifer Brown, who kindly agreed to share her insights on parents giving parental responsibilities to children.

RELATED:

    Due to various reasons, parental responsibilities sometimes fall on children’s shoulders

    Young man making lunch only for himself in a kitchen, reflecting moment of mom guilt-trip about siblings.

    Image credits: Garakta-Studio / envato (not the actual photo)

    This mom also tried to burden her teen with taking care of his sibling’s lunches, but he firmly refused

    Teen boy shares frustration over making his own lunch while feeling mom guilt-tripped for not making siblings’ lunches.

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    Teen son making lunch only for himself faces mom guilt-tripping him over not preparing food for siblings.

    Text discussing a son's boundaries with siblings and mom guilt-trips over making lunch only for himself.

    Text excerpt showing a mom guilt-tripping son who makes lunch only for himself and not his siblings in a family argument.

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    Woman with glasses explaining mom guilt-trips to son who makes lunch only for himself, standing in bright room with plants.

    Image credits: valeriygoncharukphoto / envato (not the actual photo)

    Alt text: Mom guilt-trips son making lunch only for himself, refusing to share with siblings during summer break.

    Boy faces mom's guilt trip after making lunch only for himself, sparking family conflict over selfishness and expectations.

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    Image credits: FromFripped

    It’s acceptable to assign parental responsibilities to children, but it has to be done with boundaries

    Parent partner and certified life coach for teens and young adults, Jennifer Brown tells Bored Panda that it’s acceptable for parents to assign parental responsibilities to their children, like helping to take care of siblings. However, it has to be done with boundaries in mind.

    “Many parents I work with are exhausted, juggling more than they ever expected. In moments of overwhelm, asking an older child to step in and help can feel like the next logical step in keeping the family afloat. And in some ways, it can be a positive experience. When it’s age-appropriate and approached with clear communication, older siblings can grow in empathy, responsibility, and confidence. It can even strengthen sibling bonds,” she explains.

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    But as mentioned before, it has to be done with intention. “Without crossing the line into long-term emotional or logistical dependency on the child,” says Brown. “The key factor is that your older child does not become a substitute for a caregiver or spouse.”

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    If that happens, it can have long-lasting consequences for the child, both mental and physical. This can lead to parentification trauma, which can cause feelings of anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem, as a kid may feel responsible to maintain a parent’s well-being without being able to meet their own needs. They might also struggle with boundary setting, have a strong need to please others, be overly responsible, and feel guilty when they don’t meet others’ expectations—all of which can pose challenges when forming healthy relationships in adulthood.

    Taking on adult responsibilities might also make them miss out on important developmental milestones, like playing with friends or pursuing hobbies. The constant need to be responsible and please others might make them struggle with chronic stress and anxiety, which can increase the risk of health problems like heart disease and autoimmune disorders.

    To help children avoid such harmful consequences, parents should be aware of the line between healthy family contribution and harmful parentification.

    “The line is crossed when helping turns into chronic responsibility—and when the child’s own needs consistently come second,” says Brown. “If they’re missing out on social development, educational opportunities, or emotional care because they’re wrapped up in managing the family’s needs, that’s a red flag. Healthy contribution looks like pitching in. Harmful parentification feels like pressure, guilt, or obligation. Kids can help—but they shouldn’t carry the weight of keeping the household running.”

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    “Practice saying, ‘This feels like too much for me right now'”

    Image credits: korrawinj / freepik (not the actual photo)

    If children or teenagers find themselves in a situation where they feel overwhelmed with the responsibilities parents are assigning them, Brown encourages them to try a few simple strategies:

    • Practice saying, “This feels like too much for me right now.”
    • Write a letter or journal if talking feels intimidating.
    • Talk to a trusted teacher, coach, or counselor if they feel stuck.

    In order to speak up, children need a safe way to do that, which starts with the adults creating an emotionally supportive environment, notes Brown. “As parents, we often forget that our teens may not know how to advocate for themselves yet. They need modeling, encouragement, and a soft landing when they do speak up.”

    What can help parents to notice their children might be taking on too much are the following signs, as suggested by Brown.

    • They’re anxious, irritable, or emotionally withdrawn.
    • They act like “the little adult” in the home.
    • They seem guilty for relaxing or having fun.
    • They struggle in school or pull away from friendships.

    To avoid overburdening their children with responsibilities, parents should regularly check in with their child, says Brown. “Not just on what they’re doing, but on how they’re feeling. Acknowledge their help with gratitude, not guilt. And most importantly, remind them often, “Your job is to be a kid,” Brown advises.

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    Most commenters believed the mom to be wrong in this situation

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    Comment discussing mom guilt-trips son who makes lunch only for himself, calling siblings lazy and entitled.

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    Comment discussing mom guilt-trips son making lunch only for himself, emphasizing parental duty for siblings' lunches.

    Alt text: Mom guilt-trips son preparing lunch only for himself while siblings go without, highlighting family tension over chores.

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    Alt text: Online comment discussing mom guilt-trips son who makes lunch only for himself and not his siblings in a family dispute.

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    Mom guilt-trips son making lunch only for himself while siblings wait, highlighting family dynamics and parenting challenges.

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    Comment explaining mom guilt-trips son who makes lunch only for himself, not siblings, and parentification issues.

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    Comment criticizing mom's guilt-tripping son for making lunch only for himself, urging him to keep preparing his own meals.

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    Screenshot of a Reddit comment calling out a mom for guilt-tripping her son who makes lunch only for himself.

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    Comment explaining mom guilt-trips son over making lunch only for himself, emphasizing parental responsibility and fairness.

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    Comment criticizing a mother for guilt-tripping her son who makes lunch only for himself, not his siblings.

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    While others thought the teenager should help his mom out

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    Reddit comment advising son to overcome mom guilt-trips about making lunch only for himself, promoting family pride and responsibility.

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    Austeja Zokaitė

    Austeja Zokaitė

    Writer, Community member

    Read more »

    Hi, glad you swung by! My name is Austėja, and in the past, I was a writer at Bored Panda. In my time here, I’ve covered some fun topics such as scrungy cats and pareidolia, as well as more serious ones about mental health and relationship hiccups. You can check them out below! I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I enjoyed writing them:)

    Read less »
    Austeja Zokaitė

    Austeja Zokaitė

    Writer, Community member

    Hi, glad you swung by! My name is Austėja, and in the past, I was a writer at Bored Panda. In my time here, I’ve covered some fun topics such as scrungy cats and pareidolia, as well as more serious ones about mental health and relationship hiccups. You can check them out below! I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I enjoyed writing them:)

    What do you think ?
    Ellinor
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Children shouldn't have to parent their siblings. And said siblings don't even complain over the lunches, so there isn't any problems to begin with ! I don't know on what weird power-trip OP's mom is, but that's got to stop.

    PeepPeep the duck
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Plus what 11 yr old (that isn’t incapacitated) can’t make a freaking sandwich for the gods sake 😂 she sounds like a slack mum and an emotionally immature one.

    Load More Replies...
    Olive Moon
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    PO said siblings haven’t asked for lunches, so it’s Mom who wants this. If siblings DO want lunches, they should help. Even very young children are able to accomplish lunch-making tasks. Create an assembly line—make it a cooperation experience. And yes, PO needs more privacy.

    Lauren Caswell
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Parentification. Wrong and sadly common. Poor kid.

    Rosie Hamilton
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    If OPs siblings want to have a packed lunch they can make their own, all of them are old enough. If they're not moaning, then they're fine with the school trash - and if mom has a problem with that, that's for her to discuss with OPs siblings, not OP. OP also needs a lock for their door and the siblings need to have better consequences for taking things that don't belong to them. If mom feels there is no respect, that's because she's not earning any.

    Sparkle
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The youngest was 11. At the age of 11 you can make your own lunch.

    Ge Po
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And put your own laundry in the basket, vacuum your own room and 1 or 2 other areas, help carry groceries ... Not everything every day and maybe not perfectly, but that's why an 11YO is a child. Gently point out or (even teach by example) where they might need to do something a bit differently to get a better result and praise them for their effort.

    Load More Replies...
    Kit Black
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Ok, to be clear, you are telling me that if I do not do your job, you will not feed me? I want to make sure I have this straight before.I call cps...

    Miki
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    One of the comments: "YTAH. I come from a large family and older siblings should and did help with younger ones." this person shoud be locked. Or this: "It takes 10% more time to make 4 lunches than it does for make 1." clearly a person who NEVER made a single sandwich in their life. It's so wrong when kids become a 3rd parent. Any psychologist will tell you that.

    Ashtophet
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The 10% guy was a “Chef”, don’t forget. Try making lunches when the kids have different tastes!

    Load More Replies...
    Ge Po
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The only way it would be alright to expect 16YO to do all the lunches, is when it means they can drop some other chores. Like, you make everyone's lunches, then no doing the dishes for you. All the other siblings are old enough to pitch in as well and it will be a good education on how to take responsibility and become independent.

    JL
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Funny how it's "not a big ask", yet she's never ever done it.

    LooseSeal's $10 Banana
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's not even about parenting their siblings (IMO, making a lunch for somebody is no different than helping out with other household chores, which all children should be doing). It's the fact that these younger siblings are capable of making their own lunches if they want to. If the older sibling does it it's just enabling laziness and dependence.

    Miri L
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I would smack your mama in to her senses, reading the article gave so much rage. She is a lazy entitled bratt. I have 3 boys myself but I wouldn't put the oldest to cook for the other 2. She should ask you to teach her or your siblings how to do the lunches and be happy and proud that you are such a responsible teenager

    Orysha
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    All the ytas are entitled spoiled brats like Op's mother.

    Renate Stargardt
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Absolutely NTA !! I'm the youngest sibling too and I'm the only girl. I was also born in '69, so the division of "roles" was kind of traditional. We nonetheless all had to help around the house (the chores usually rotated).... but when I learned to cook and bake at school (at 12/13), it was clear that I would help with cooking more often, or bake a cake on Sunday. I've always loved cooking, and baking a Sunday cake didn't bother me that much... but I thought it was unfair that I still had to do the other chores. My brothers could sleep until noon (on weekends or during holidays), and I was the only one who had to get up at 9 a.m. (or even earlier) to help my mother in the kitchen. Eventually, I refused to do the other chores. My mother thought it was perfectly justified and decided I didn't have to them anymore. My brothers of course, were complaining, but given the choice of taking turns taking on my other kitchen chores (including learning to cook and bake), they were fine with it.

    Fellfromthemoon
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The chef saying "take this opportunity to do something for your family" and "it takes 10% more time" is especially rich. Would anyone consider paying only 10% more to a chef for making four times more food?!? Not to mention, a chef is the very definition of "my cooking in exchange for money." Similarly, everybody fawns over the father being in OP's corner. So much that he is willing to argue against the mother. Making lunch for HIS children? Not so much.

    SeaWitch3000
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Reminds me of how much I still don't like my mother

    Bethany Francis
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Op is NTA, the siblings are old enough to make their own lunches. My 13 year old has been making their own lunches since they were 10 and has no issue with it.

    Crystalwitch60
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So,e people should NOT be parents , n your mother is one of em !! she needs to you know PARENT DO HER DAM JOB , my 21-24 yr old cook for themselves a few times a week as I taught them to cook from scratch ,, like I do , n they love cooking like I do , n I don’t expect them to cook for me , like ffs she should learn to cook mother up , and GROW UP !! NTA , But op you could teach your siblings to make their own , not for your mother , but for them ! otherwise they will grow up as bloody useless n entitled as she is , n give your dad a hug he’s awesome x

    Kate Johnson
    Community Member
    Premium
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So Mom is worthless and lazy and just allows the youngers to stomp all over the oldest. She should plan on absolutely no relationship with this kid when he moves out. Likely as soon as he possibly can. She sounds quite extra. Bet that marriage won't last either.

    Philly Bob
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I've been cooking and making my lunches since I was 10! (I'm the oldest and only male of 3) My next youngest down was 5 years behind me so no worries there. I have and still do at age 67, collect vinyl records. (I have close to 10K of them!) My Mom would give me lunch money and money for bus tokens. I figured if I could make my own lunch and walk to and from school, I'd have enough to buy 2 albums every week! I did actually buy a bag of 10 tokens but only to keep handy if the weather got foul and even if it was just a light rain, I'd still walk. But, I had a nice lunch and a healthy walk each day and a crapload of record albums, many of which I still have today! I still do all the cooking for my wife and I and did so for my family for most of my life. Thanks Mom, for showing me how to cook! It paid off in more ways than one!

    Kat
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    honestly, mom sounds lazy AF, she wants he kids to eat healthy but don´t want to do anything for that. Also, OP is 16, she has to legaly provide food for them, she can´t demand he basically works for his food. They are her kids, it´s her job to take care of them.

    KatSaidWhat
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mom trying to nope out of momming.

    DC
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    OP could ... teach the siblings how to. There's a plethora of better solutios to this than only yes and no to Mom's request, but they need to figure it out. The YTAs, however, are at it again as always - they don't seem to see the point this is about, and likely that's due to refusing to, not due to being unable to.

    Ellinor
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Children shouldn't have to parent their siblings. And said siblings don't even complain over the lunches, so there isn't any problems to begin with ! I don't know on what weird power-trip OP's mom is, but that's got to stop.

    PeepPeep the duck
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Plus what 11 yr old (that isn’t incapacitated) can’t make a freaking sandwich for the gods sake 😂 she sounds like a slack mum and an emotionally immature one.

    Load More Replies...
    Olive Moon
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    PO said siblings haven’t asked for lunches, so it’s Mom who wants this. If siblings DO want lunches, they should help. Even very young children are able to accomplish lunch-making tasks. Create an assembly line—make it a cooperation experience. And yes, PO needs more privacy.

    Lauren Caswell
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Parentification. Wrong and sadly common. Poor kid.

    Rosie Hamilton
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    If OPs siblings want to have a packed lunch they can make their own, all of them are old enough. If they're not moaning, then they're fine with the school trash - and if mom has a problem with that, that's for her to discuss with OPs siblings, not OP. OP also needs a lock for their door and the siblings need to have better consequences for taking things that don't belong to them. If mom feels there is no respect, that's because she's not earning any.

    Sparkle
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The youngest was 11. At the age of 11 you can make your own lunch.

    Ge Po
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    And put your own laundry in the basket, vacuum your own room and 1 or 2 other areas, help carry groceries ... Not everything every day and maybe not perfectly, but that's why an 11YO is a child. Gently point out or (even teach by example) where they might need to do something a bit differently to get a better result and praise them for their effort.

    Load More Replies...
    Kit Black
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Ok, to be clear, you are telling me that if I do not do your job, you will not feed me? I want to make sure I have this straight before.I call cps...

    Miki
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    One of the comments: "YTAH. I come from a large family and older siblings should and did help with younger ones." this person shoud be locked. Or this: "It takes 10% more time to make 4 lunches than it does for make 1." clearly a person who NEVER made a single sandwich in their life. It's so wrong when kids become a 3rd parent. Any psychologist will tell you that.

    Ashtophet
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The 10% guy was a “Chef”, don’t forget. Try making lunches when the kids have different tastes!

    Load More Replies...
    Ge Po
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The only way it would be alright to expect 16YO to do all the lunches, is when it means they can drop some other chores. Like, you make everyone's lunches, then no doing the dishes for you. All the other siblings are old enough to pitch in as well and it will be a good education on how to take responsibility and become independent.

    JL
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Funny how it's "not a big ask", yet she's never ever done it.

    LooseSeal's $10 Banana
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    It's not even about parenting their siblings (IMO, making a lunch for somebody is no different than helping out with other household chores, which all children should be doing). It's the fact that these younger siblings are capable of making their own lunches if they want to. If the older sibling does it it's just enabling laziness and dependence.

    Miri L
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I would smack your mama in to her senses, reading the article gave so much rage. She is a lazy entitled bratt. I have 3 boys myself but I wouldn't put the oldest to cook for the other 2. She should ask you to teach her or your siblings how to do the lunches and be happy and proud that you are such a responsible teenager

    Orysha
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    All the ytas are entitled spoiled brats like Op's mother.

    Renate Stargardt
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Absolutely NTA !! I'm the youngest sibling too and I'm the only girl. I was also born in '69, so the division of "roles" was kind of traditional. We nonetheless all had to help around the house (the chores usually rotated).... but when I learned to cook and bake at school (at 12/13), it was clear that I would help with cooking more often, or bake a cake on Sunday. I've always loved cooking, and baking a Sunday cake didn't bother me that much... but I thought it was unfair that I still had to do the other chores. My brothers could sleep until noon (on weekends or during holidays), and I was the only one who had to get up at 9 a.m. (or even earlier) to help my mother in the kitchen. Eventually, I refused to do the other chores. My mother thought it was perfectly justified and decided I didn't have to them anymore. My brothers of course, were complaining, but given the choice of taking turns taking on my other kitchen chores (including learning to cook and bake), they were fine with it.

    Fellfromthemoon
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    The chef saying "take this opportunity to do something for your family" and "it takes 10% more time" is especially rich. Would anyone consider paying only 10% more to a chef for making four times more food?!? Not to mention, a chef is the very definition of "my cooking in exchange for money." Similarly, everybody fawns over the father being in OP's corner. So much that he is willing to argue against the mother. Making lunch for HIS children? Not so much.

    SeaWitch3000
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Reminds me of how much I still don't like my mother

    Bethany Francis
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Op is NTA, the siblings are old enough to make their own lunches. My 13 year old has been making their own lunches since they were 10 and has no issue with it.

    Crystalwitch60
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So,e people should NOT be parents , n your mother is one of em !! she needs to you know PARENT DO HER DAM JOB , my 21-24 yr old cook for themselves a few times a week as I taught them to cook from scratch ,, like I do , n they love cooking like I do , n I don’t expect them to cook for me , like ffs she should learn to cook mother up , and GROW UP !! NTA , But op you could teach your siblings to make their own , not for your mother , but for them ! otherwise they will grow up as bloody useless n entitled as she is , n give your dad a hug he’s awesome x

    Kate Johnson
    Community Member
    Premium
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    So Mom is worthless and lazy and just allows the youngers to stomp all over the oldest. She should plan on absolutely no relationship with this kid when he moves out. Likely as soon as he possibly can. She sounds quite extra. Bet that marriage won't last either.

    Philly Bob
    Community Member
    5 months ago (edited) Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    I've been cooking and making my lunches since I was 10! (I'm the oldest and only male of 3) My next youngest down was 5 years behind me so no worries there. I have and still do at age 67, collect vinyl records. (I have close to 10K of them!) My Mom would give me lunch money and money for bus tokens. I figured if I could make my own lunch and walk to and from school, I'd have enough to buy 2 albums every week! I did actually buy a bag of 10 tokens but only to keep handy if the weather got foul and even if it was just a light rain, I'd still walk. But, I had a nice lunch and a healthy walk each day and a crapload of record albums, many of which I still have today! I still do all the cooking for my wife and I and did so for my family for most of my life. Thanks Mom, for showing me how to cook! It paid off in more ways than one!

    Kat
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    honestly, mom sounds lazy AF, she wants he kids to eat healthy but don´t want to do anything for that. Also, OP is 16, she has to legaly provide food for them, she can´t demand he basically works for his food. They are her kids, it´s her job to take care of them.

    KatSaidWhat
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    Mom trying to nope out of momming.

    DC
    Community Member
    5 months ago Created by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

    OP could ... teach the siblings how to. There's a plethora of better solutios to this than only yes and no to Mom's request, but they need to figure it out. The YTAs, however, are at it again as always - they don't seem to see the point this is about, and likely that's due to refusing to, not due to being unable to.

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