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Guy Shares History Facts To Show How Fast And How Much Gender Norms Develop Because They’re Totally Made Up

Guy Shares History Facts To Show How Fast And How Much Gender Norms Develop Because They’re Totally Made Up

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Gender stereotypes are a touchy issue that tends to start fiery discussions online. However, a quick glance at some history books will show you that gender norms constantly evolve over time and some things and clothes that might seem ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ now may have had completely different connotations before.

Michael McBride, the founder of the ‘Idea Soup’ TikTok channel, claims that we’re just making everything up when it comes to gender norms. And he explained how men used to wear what we’d now call ‘feminine’ clothing not that long ago. Check out his viral video below and let us know what you think of it, dear Pandas!

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Michael explained how gender norms and fashion choices that were seen as ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ have changed over time. Check out the full video below

@idea.souppeople get so heated over stuff we literally made up #history #interestingfacts #historytime #historylesson #learnontiktok #edutok #lgbthistory♬ original sound – Michael McBride

The Smithsonian Magazine points out that “the march toward gender-specific clothes was neither linear nor rapid.” Both pink and blue-colored clothes, along with other pastels, were used for babies’ clothing in the mid-19th century. However, it wasn’t until the First World War that the colors became assigned to specific genders. In 1918, it was the general view that pink was a color meant for boys while the more “delicate and dainty” blue, according to one publication by Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department, was meant for girls.

The trend to dress boys up in pink continued. In 1927, Time magazine suggested that parents do just that. Things changed in the 1940s after manufacturers and retailers began establishing styles. Historian Jo B. Paoletti from the University of Maryland told the Smithsonian Magazine that “it could have gone the other way” very easily.

Opinions toward gendered clothing began shifting once again in the 1960s and 1970s as the women’s liberation movement gained more and more traction. And then they changed once again in the 1980s as some mothers “rejected the unisex look for their own daughters” after having grown up without feminine clothes and styles themselves.

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Sister and brother, both wearing dresses, circa 1905

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Image source: Wikimedia commons

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Some would argue that Michael focuses only on some of the superficial aspects of gender norms (i.e. the clothing), not what lies deeper: the historical expectations for behavior. His video is an incredibly interesting lesson on how fashion slowly evolves over time to match different understandings of gender, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say that ‘one day we just woke up’ and decided to flip everything upside down. Change simply doesn’t happen that quickly.

What’s more, claiming that nothing we do matters because we all made it up actually sets a dangerous precedent for legitimate social change. You could then claim that absolutely no discussion or argument ever matters. And that would mean that there’s no need to make changes in society because it wouldn’t matter either way.

There is a flip side to this discussion, however, that not everyone might agree with, but is important to address. Even though gender norms and stereotypes might change over time, who we’re attracted to and why remains more or less constant for most people (the keyword here is most). And you can hardly deny that building relationships are a major part of being human.

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Stereotypes about masculinity are stereotypes for a reason, even if we might not fully agree with them or if they’re not as nuanced as we like. At least, according to relationship and dating expert Dan Bacon who believes that we should be aware of these stereotypes and how they influence people’s perceptions, even though they’re being increasingly difficult to talk about in a modern setting.

And no matter what we do and how we act (whether we’re being who we want to be or we adapt to fit in with local norms), society constantly judges us, whether we like it or not. Dan stressed that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with men doing ‘feminine’ things, however, we can’t have the expectation that absolutely everyone will understand this or will accept this. Some will, others won’t; but being judged isn’t something that we can escape, no matter how successful we might be.

“Almost all women completely accept and often encourage men to get in touch with their ‘feminine side’ if they want to. Some women find that very attractive in a man. In fact, some women prefer it and don’t like manly men at all,” relationship expert Dan told Bored Panda in an interview. “However, the majority of women just don’t feel as sexually attracted to men who like to behave in a traditionally feminine way, as they do to men who behave in a traditionally masculine way.”

He continued: “Therefore, while a man can freely engage in any activity that others may see as being girly or feminine, he should be aware that it can affect the way a woman feels about him sexually, or views him in terms of a romantic relationship.”

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According to Dan, it’s both women and men who pressure one another to ‘edit’ what they’re passionate about, how they act, and how they dress to fit certain gender stereotypes. There’s no villain in this story.

“Many people are afraid of being judged by others for what they spend their time on, so they try to do what others do, even if they don’t feel the same way about the activity or way of life,” the expert explained.

“This happens because at the end of the day, most people want to be accepted by others and if doing a certain thing (e.g. doing MMA fighting as a woman, ballet as a man) might cause them to be disliked by people important to them (e.g. parents, friends, siblings), they may decide to avoid it altogether,” Dan highlighted.

“Yet, the reality of life is that you will be judged by others whether you do a certain thing or not,” he said, pointing out that we’re free to do absolutely anything that we’re passionate about, but we should also be aware of how most (though not all) people might react to what we do and how we choose to present ourselves.

Here’s how some people reacted to the video

So, dear Readers, what did you think of Michael’s video? Do you agree with what he said? How do you think gender norms will continue to shift in the future? Share your opinion with everyone else in the comment section below.

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johnjpopp avatar
John P.
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

The use of the icon of Christ with his Mother does not fit with the article. In Christian iconography, the red color (now faded on Christ in the icon) signifies divinity, while blue signifies humanity. This is why most icons show Christ wearing a red inner garment with a blue cloak over it, showing that he is divine and put on humanity. Mary is seen in the opposite way, wearing blue closest to her skin with a red cloak over it, showing she is human and took on the divine. Regardless, this was a good and interesting article. I just wanted to add some clarification.

mariabernphoto avatar
Marija Bern
BoredPanda Staff
Verified
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Thank you for the explanation, we have removed the photo

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shelbyp avatar
Shelby P
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I'm guessing having all babies in dresses had a lot to do with 'potty' training or whatever the equivalent was before indoor plumbing.

andreavilarmelego avatar
Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think so. It was easier to access the diapers and take them for potty later on.

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raven_sheridan14 avatar
Raven Sheridan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I wanna see a bunch of big, burly footballers playing in pink tutus at the Superbowl! Smash those stereotypes for every little boy and girl, so they know it's okay to be themselves.

johnc_1 avatar
John C
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Don't they still do breast cancer awareness in October, wearing pink gloves/socks/whatever? (haven't watched the NFL in years, maybe they stopped?)

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simonkwan_facebook avatar
Simon Kwan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Gender rules are social constructs. People conflate gender with sex and sexuality but they're all separate and non binding to one another. None of it actually matters and to take offense exhibits one's personal ignorance or inability to comprehend non binary conditions. It's ok to be uncomfortable when encountering something or someone different than one's scope of experience. That discomfort is just your brain trying to catch up to process new data. One's personal discomfort is not a justification to confront someone or expect them to conform to one's myopic worldview. It's not them. It's you.

sunnybby avatar
Sunnybby
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

My mom makes me wear dresses even tho i feel rly uncomfortable with them :/ going to send this to her if i remember

ninjawolfy94 avatar
NinjaWolfy94
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Depending on your age (not asking what it is, but if you're maybe 11 or under, it's very unlikely you'll get away with just saying no, stupidly :/ You're also much more likely to just do what she says or take the punishment), if you don't want to wear a dress, just don't say no. Push back. You're your own person. And if she wants to punish you for it, ignore her. (If you do do something that you deserve a punishment for though, still take it. I'm not saying to completely disobey your parents...) Respect is a two way bridge. And if she can't respect you for such a small thing, you shouldn't have to respect her for it either (again, not saying don't respect your parents if they're good parents, just that she's being ridiculous and you shouldn't have to wear a dress if you don't want to). But if she physically forces you to wear them though, it's probably time to reach out for help, because that's disgusting behaviour.

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infectedvoice avatar
InfectedVoice
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

As a metal-head I remember lots of metal dudes in the 80's wearing little cut off t-shirts and little spandex tights, and I'm not just talking glam metal, fashion changes fast and constantly.

candacefitzpatrick avatar
Candace Fitzpatrick
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Yes! My dad had long hair and wore way too tiny shorts and crop tops... like a football jersey but cut above the midsection. This was only 35 or so years ago

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sashakuleshov avatar
Sasha Kuleshov
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Great, now make my pant's pockets big enough to actually put things in there :O

mintyminameow avatar
Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago

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That doesn’t make sense. Skinny pants have skinny pockets. Buy wider leg pants and you’ll get bigger pockets. If it’s all the same, you can buy pants labeled for men. Big pockets can’t go on skinny pants, that would ruin them.

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phantomed avatar
Edgar Rops
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Well, dresses were not for boys and(or) girls, they were for children, who were considered somewhat genderless. High heels were manly, because they were a part of horseman's footwear (cowboy boots still have them).

mintyminameow avatar
Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago

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I’d like to go back to children being somewhat genderless “its” rather than hes and shes.

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john_123 avatar
More Thinking Needed
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Boys wore dresses in the 1900s to aid and make toilet training easier. Clothes children wore back then were much more cumbersome. Dresses not only helped the parents change diapers, but made it easier for the child to go the the bathroom by himself.

alediaz avatar
Ale Díaz
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I watch a lot of old mexican movies, in one of them the couple have twins, 1 girl, 1 boy. The men of the house want the boy wears cowboy clothes, but the mom says no, the boys have to wear dresses the first year, because the pants can hurt his genitalia area.

claireskrine avatar
Just saying
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Which is why if you're a boy who loves soft, swishy dresses, or a girl who loves her tough muddy boots....it's ok to be a boy who loves soft swishy dresses, and a girl who loves her tough muddy boots....you're not 'demi' or anything (unless that's what you're happiest calling yourself). I say this as an older woman who doesn't do make up, handbags or fancy dresses and shoes.....and it's fine.

hjdashiell avatar
Paradise
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

First, this guy looks like Lance Bass. My kids had no concept of gender norms as littles. They like everything. My son is wearing a pink PJ shirt with a pig on it (a "girl's" shirt of you will) and yesterday had my daughter' old clothes on, which included pink sneakers. She had dinosaur rainboots and Paw Patrol shoes found in the "boy" department then, too. We discuss gender norms in the home - how it is made up, but people will have their ideas in their head. My daughter is 7 and has no boy|girl concepts in her. But, she has taken a liking to pink in the last couple of years. It is definitely a learned concept. We never shunned pink, but we never doted on it, and always gave her choices.

andreavilarmelego avatar
Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

That is awesome. Sadly they also get brainwashed by teachers, medoa, other kids and even relatives. So keeping kids out of the gender rules is difficult

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joanncasey70 avatar
Joann Casey
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

It was 50 years ago when David Bowie wore a dress on the cover of the incredible album The Man Who Sold the World. I thought he was being progressive turns out it was old fashioned :)

suzannerichard avatar
Suzy the observer
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Very interesting but hard to read due to the guy's face being all over the place. It's hilarious that some people lost their s**t because Harry Styles wore a dress on a mag cover. For centuries, that was the male norm.

kathrynbaylis_1 avatar
Kathryn Baylis
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

My oldest brother was born in 1942, and wore dresses through toddlerhood. I remember asking my mother about it when I saw a picture of him when he was maybe 18 months old. None of my other three brothers (who were born in 1947, 1949, and 1951) wore dresses as babies, except at their christenings. She told me that was just what they did back then, but it had changed after the war when the rest of us started coming along.

magnadar avatar
magnadar
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

"Our culture is made up". Of course it is, that's what culture is. The things we do and see as "normal behaviour".

ksheff1122 avatar
The_tattered_hippie
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

All children ore dresses because parents either cloth diapered (which means more frequent changes of the diaper) or elimination communication. Either way... it was logical and functional to have a pre toilet trained child in a dress.

wianjama avatar
Rissie
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

The problem is that we like to differentiate. It doesn't matter whether what "side" wears what, it's about the fact at any given time there are rules about things like that. Being age, gender, cultural. It's great that question rules, but how about we keep it to the meta rule that's the problem.

andreavilarmelego avatar
Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Why would we need to diferenciatte between sexes? Except if you are at the doctor or looking for a sexual partner it is irrelevant.

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wendychenoweth avatar
Wendy Chenoweth
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I always hated the gender thing in baby/kids clothes. I used to own a kids clothing store and would relish when a customer came in, their baby wearing a pink frilly dress with a pink bow in their hair, I would say, how cute! Is that a little boy or a girl? And vice versa. They'd look at me as if I'd lost my mind.

shannonrichards25 avatar
ShareMusic
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I wonder if young children wearing dresses had to do with the practical aspects of diapering and toilet training in the days of outhouses and cloth diapers with no way to keep clothing dry.

bcgrote avatar
Brandy Grote
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Dresses on young people makes sense. Easy to change a diaper, and potty train.

andersonbrandino19 avatar
Anderson B. da Silva
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I will teach my boys to wear skirts and dresses until a certain age when they learn to wear pants. And God willing that one day this norm and convention fashion will return and spread throughout the country and even be exported back to the West.

edwinquantrall_1 avatar
Edwin Quantrall
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealMenWearPink That is all.

pacovela avatar
Paco Vela
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Well, in pictures from XV to XIX centuries you see little aristocracy boys dressed as girls and it was not about diapers changing. The reason was to "cheat" the Devil, who was in search of the families first male born.

nightfalltwen avatar
Kimberley McMillan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

If I ever have a boy, I'm going to put him in dresses until he's potty trained. Just imagine how easy the diaper changing will be.

owlbystarlight avatar
Doubleheader
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

One of my favorite historical figures is Frida Kahlo! I aspire to have such an amazing sense of fashion (and attitude!) as her. She broke those gender stereotypes!

rhodabike6 avatar
Seabeast
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think the main reason for the dresses was because it made it easier to change a diaper in the days before snap fasteners were invented.

el_dee_1 avatar
El Dee
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Christening gowns etc still the same. Similar for taking your baby home from the hospital (in some places) This is all BS and it's just the fashion of the day. For children the influences generally have come from mothers but at least these days we're beginning to question why the hell we do what we do..

rhemore1 avatar
Suzanne Haigh
Community Member
2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

In the UK it was 5 not 7 when boys were or 'de-frocked' (I think) and had their hair cut, my Gt.Grandma informed me

kim_lorton avatar
Kim Lorton
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

It is all made up and dictated by church , modesty and all kinds of crap.

angela_snelling avatar
Angela Snelling
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I have photos of my grandfather and his parents, he has curls and is wearing a white dress too, probably aged about 2. It was definitely a thing!

baritoneewart avatar
Daniel Ewart
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

You know why the dresses were a thing, right? Money and potty training. It wasn’t random. Then, the shift happened for money. Marketing and all that. The high heels thing was all about the same thing. The taller the man, the more imposing and sexually dominant. It also shapes the calf better. Ever hear the term to turn a good calf? It was sexy back then because everything else was so covered up. Today, for women, it’s about butts, calves, and appearing (shocker) more sexually dominant. Heels are all about making babies. It’s a fair series of points that unfortunately leave out good explanations for one bad assumption that we make it all up. Rarely do things in society take off that have no apparent point to them and last all that long. If it isn’t biologically related or practical, in short order it get’s tossed.

sterre_klaver avatar
Stella
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

One little chance that only adds to the sexism of it all: People didn't "just one day wake up and do the opposite". Often feminist women started adopting masculine styles to equate themselves with men and reflect their feminist views. After it became feminist fashion, sexists would start to shy away from these styles, because they wanted to avoid that equation. This is what happened to pink and high heels.

ohxrkqra avatar
Kira Okah
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Of course gender roles are social constructs, not seen anyone denying that. Gender Identity is not, and people seem to mix the two up, Gender Identity is nothing to do with Gender Roles.

bethblue12 avatar
TexasWoman
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Why did someone even come up with the idea of certain colors, outfits, names, etc are for males n others for females?

changedmoon avatar
Hugo A-niro
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think if we saw Mitch McConnell dressed in a tutu he would still be the same old mitch

nicoledavis_2 avatar
tangy chip
Community Member
3 years ago

This comment has been deleted.

nikkiowens avatar
Nikki Owens
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

That's fine and all, but the point of gender norms isn't what they ARE, it's that they EXIST. The point is the distinction/difference itself – not the specifics of the distinction, something that (as he points out) can vary wildly depending on time and place. Despite these variations in specifics, you will never find any human society that didn't have gender norms. Variation in gender norms doesn't make them meaningless or unimportant; it actually shows how deep and ubiquitous they really are.

maureenmatthew73 avatar
Maureen Matthew
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Yes culture is made up, shocking. But the problem is not socialized norms but today you are forced to believe them usually with the heavy hand of government, THAT is the problem and what so many people rebel against. And the little boys in dresses is a class thing. Only the rich could afford photos so the record starts out with the bias thinking all little boys wore white dresses, not so, just those rich enough to afford photos.. As well white anything was a sign of wealth since you needed lots of servants to clean those white dresses.

marinamercouri avatar
Beatrice Multhaupt
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Gender issues my foot! High heels were originally used by both men and women to sidestep the copious amounts of feces littering the streets because people simply dumped the contents of their chamber pots out the window. At night, the local river was usually diverted to flood the streets and wash away the mess...sort of.

wh4ok avatar
Jon S.
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

High heels started as riding aides to help keep the foot in the stirrup. Short nobel men brought them into the mainstream. What you are describing is the Chopine, an overshoe, though I can see the confusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopine

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dddoucett avatar
Tres D
Community Member
3 years ago

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It's called a norm because it's what considered normal for the time. Everything changes all the time! Now people are using gender as a political talking point because all of a sudden we have 60 different genders. Its just mind games, word games and political correctness games! If you say there are only 2 genders your demonized and called a bigot. If you're honest with yourself you would be able to say that it is a proven fact that there are only 2 genders. XX and XY chromosomes don't lie, and science doesn't care about your feelings!

katie-trondsen avatar
KT
Community Member
3 years ago

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Well actually, red paint was used on the soles of feet to signify you were available to get down back in early human history

farhinsk avatar
QueerTheory
Community Member
3 years ago (edited)

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although its true that pink for girls and blue for boys have become established gender norms now. But there was no evidence of the reversal. I did a term paper on this topic. The author Jo B. Paoletti only found inconsistency, not a reversal. I know this information doesn’t change the original intention of this video, but its important to underline scientific misinformation.

wh4ok avatar
Jon S.
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

2) Literally just realised that quote starts with "There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject". But also found another one from the same era "use pink for the boy and blue for the girl, if you are a follower of convention."

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beejayw avatar
Ben Smith
Community Member
3 years ago

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Of course gender norms are made up. Where do you think they came from? That doesn't mean to they're not ok to use of you so choose...

jyrihakola avatar
Jyri Hakola
Community Member
3 years ago

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Good point but really... Do we have lost a skill to just write the text and include only the relevant images

mintyminameow avatar
Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

You mean you didn’t love 16 pictures of this guy showing his widest-eye expressions with his mouth agape? Lol

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euniceprobert avatar
Eunice Probert
Community Member
3 years ago

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To be fair it would have been affluent parents who put their sons into dresses. Working class people wouldn't have had the time or money to put up with that nonsense. Children would have had to be useful at a much earlier age.

tiari avatar
Tiari
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

No, working class toddlers wore dresses too. Just not white frills but grey linen.

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xcomputernautx avatar
Computernaut
Community Member
3 years ago

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It's true that some gender stereotypes are made up, this being an example. However, some of them are based on actual fact.

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Vera
Community Member
3 years ago

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mac
Community Member
3 years ago

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We live in a society where everything has a meaning. It's how we make order out of much of what goes on around us. If there is no more meaning to anything then chaos reigns.

leodomitrix avatar
Leo Domitrix
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

True, but the shifts on what makes sense can change rather suddenly, in a historical sense.

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stienbabe avatar
Becky Samuel
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Would you have preferred the article if it were written by a woman with a beard?

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ian_smith avatar
Ian Smith
Community Member
3 years ago

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Hitler and the Nazis reversed the pink/blue use. Google it.

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Becca Gizmo the Squirrel
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I know stores started using it as a marketing scheme. Having to buy different toys for boys and girls.

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johnjpopp avatar
John P.
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

The use of the icon of Christ with his Mother does not fit with the article. In Christian iconography, the red color (now faded on Christ in the icon) signifies divinity, while blue signifies humanity. This is why most icons show Christ wearing a red inner garment with a blue cloak over it, showing that he is divine and put on humanity. Mary is seen in the opposite way, wearing blue closest to her skin with a red cloak over it, showing she is human and took on the divine. Regardless, this was a good and interesting article. I just wanted to add some clarification.

mariabernphoto avatar
Marija Bern
BoredPanda Staff
Verified
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Thank you for the explanation, we have removed the photo

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Shelby P
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I'm guessing having all babies in dresses had a lot to do with 'potty' training or whatever the equivalent was before indoor plumbing.

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Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think so. It was easier to access the diapers and take them for potty later on.

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Raven Sheridan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I wanna see a bunch of big, burly footballers playing in pink tutus at the Superbowl! Smash those stereotypes for every little boy and girl, so they know it's okay to be themselves.

johnc_1 avatar
John C
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Don't they still do breast cancer awareness in October, wearing pink gloves/socks/whatever? (haven't watched the NFL in years, maybe they stopped?)

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Simon Kwan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Gender rules are social constructs. People conflate gender with sex and sexuality but they're all separate and non binding to one another. None of it actually matters and to take offense exhibits one's personal ignorance or inability to comprehend non binary conditions. It's ok to be uncomfortable when encountering something or someone different than one's scope of experience. That discomfort is just your brain trying to catch up to process new data. One's personal discomfort is not a justification to confront someone or expect them to conform to one's myopic worldview. It's not them. It's you.

sunnybby avatar
Sunnybby
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

My mom makes me wear dresses even tho i feel rly uncomfortable with them :/ going to send this to her if i remember

ninjawolfy94 avatar
NinjaWolfy94
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Depending on your age (not asking what it is, but if you're maybe 11 or under, it's very unlikely you'll get away with just saying no, stupidly :/ You're also much more likely to just do what she says or take the punishment), if you don't want to wear a dress, just don't say no. Push back. You're your own person. And if she wants to punish you for it, ignore her. (If you do do something that you deserve a punishment for though, still take it. I'm not saying to completely disobey your parents...) Respect is a two way bridge. And if she can't respect you for such a small thing, you shouldn't have to respect her for it either (again, not saying don't respect your parents if they're good parents, just that she's being ridiculous and you shouldn't have to wear a dress if you don't want to). But if she physically forces you to wear them though, it's probably time to reach out for help, because that's disgusting behaviour.

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infectedvoice avatar
InfectedVoice
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

As a metal-head I remember lots of metal dudes in the 80's wearing little cut off t-shirts and little spandex tights, and I'm not just talking glam metal, fashion changes fast and constantly.

candacefitzpatrick avatar
Candace Fitzpatrick
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Yes! My dad had long hair and wore way too tiny shorts and crop tops... like a football jersey but cut above the midsection. This was only 35 or so years ago

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Sasha Kuleshov
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Great, now make my pant's pockets big enough to actually put things in there :O

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Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago

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That doesn’t make sense. Skinny pants have skinny pockets. Buy wider leg pants and you’ll get bigger pockets. If it’s all the same, you can buy pants labeled for men. Big pockets can’t go on skinny pants, that would ruin them.

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phantomed avatar
Edgar Rops
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Well, dresses were not for boys and(or) girls, they were for children, who were considered somewhat genderless. High heels were manly, because they were a part of horseman's footwear (cowboy boots still have them).

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Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago

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I’d like to go back to children being somewhat genderless “its” rather than hes and shes.

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john_123 avatar
More Thinking Needed
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Boys wore dresses in the 1900s to aid and make toilet training easier. Clothes children wore back then were much more cumbersome. Dresses not only helped the parents change diapers, but made it easier for the child to go the the bathroom by himself.

alediaz avatar
Ale Díaz
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I watch a lot of old mexican movies, in one of them the couple have twins, 1 girl, 1 boy. The men of the house want the boy wears cowboy clothes, but the mom says no, the boys have to wear dresses the first year, because the pants can hurt his genitalia area.

claireskrine avatar
Just saying
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Which is why if you're a boy who loves soft, swishy dresses, or a girl who loves her tough muddy boots....it's ok to be a boy who loves soft swishy dresses, and a girl who loves her tough muddy boots....you're not 'demi' or anything (unless that's what you're happiest calling yourself). I say this as an older woman who doesn't do make up, handbags or fancy dresses and shoes.....and it's fine.

hjdashiell avatar
Paradise
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

First, this guy looks like Lance Bass. My kids had no concept of gender norms as littles. They like everything. My son is wearing a pink PJ shirt with a pig on it (a "girl's" shirt of you will) and yesterday had my daughter' old clothes on, which included pink sneakers. She had dinosaur rainboots and Paw Patrol shoes found in the "boy" department then, too. We discuss gender norms in the home - how it is made up, but people will have their ideas in their head. My daughter is 7 and has no boy|girl concepts in her. But, she has taken a liking to pink in the last couple of years. It is definitely a learned concept. We never shunned pink, but we never doted on it, and always gave her choices.

andreavilarmelego avatar
Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

That is awesome. Sadly they also get brainwashed by teachers, medoa, other kids and even relatives. So keeping kids out of the gender rules is difficult

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joanncasey70 avatar
Joann Casey
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

It was 50 years ago when David Bowie wore a dress on the cover of the incredible album The Man Who Sold the World. I thought he was being progressive turns out it was old fashioned :)

suzannerichard avatar
Suzy the observer
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Very interesting but hard to read due to the guy's face being all over the place. It's hilarious that some people lost their s**t because Harry Styles wore a dress on a mag cover. For centuries, that was the male norm.

kathrynbaylis_1 avatar
Kathryn Baylis
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

My oldest brother was born in 1942, and wore dresses through toddlerhood. I remember asking my mother about it when I saw a picture of him when he was maybe 18 months old. None of my other three brothers (who were born in 1947, 1949, and 1951) wore dresses as babies, except at their christenings. She told me that was just what they did back then, but it had changed after the war when the rest of us started coming along.

magnadar avatar
magnadar
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

"Our culture is made up". Of course it is, that's what culture is. The things we do and see as "normal behaviour".

ksheff1122 avatar
The_tattered_hippie
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

All children ore dresses because parents either cloth diapered (which means more frequent changes of the diaper) or elimination communication. Either way... it was logical and functional to have a pre toilet trained child in a dress.

wianjama avatar
Rissie
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

The problem is that we like to differentiate. It doesn't matter whether what "side" wears what, it's about the fact at any given time there are rules about things like that. Being age, gender, cultural. It's great that question rules, but how about we keep it to the meta rule that's the problem.

andreavilarmelego avatar
Ozacoter
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Why would we need to diferenciatte between sexes? Except if you are at the doctor or looking for a sexual partner it is irrelevant.

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wendychenoweth avatar
Wendy Chenoweth
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I always hated the gender thing in baby/kids clothes. I used to own a kids clothing store and would relish when a customer came in, their baby wearing a pink frilly dress with a pink bow in their hair, I would say, how cute! Is that a little boy or a girl? And vice versa. They'd look at me as if I'd lost my mind.

shannonrichards25 avatar
ShareMusic
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I wonder if young children wearing dresses had to do with the practical aspects of diapering and toilet training in the days of outhouses and cloth diapers with no way to keep clothing dry.

bcgrote avatar
Brandy Grote
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Dresses on young people makes sense. Easy to change a diaper, and potty train.

andersonbrandino19 avatar
Anderson B. da Silva
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I will teach my boys to wear skirts and dresses until a certain age when they learn to wear pants. And God willing that one day this norm and convention fashion will return and spread throughout the country and even be exported back to the West.

edwinquantrall_1 avatar
Edwin Quantrall
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealMenWearPink That is all.

pacovela avatar
Paco Vela
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Well, in pictures from XV to XIX centuries you see little aristocracy boys dressed as girls and it was not about diapers changing. The reason was to "cheat" the Devil, who was in search of the families first male born.

nightfalltwen avatar
Kimberley McMillan
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

If I ever have a boy, I'm going to put him in dresses until he's potty trained. Just imagine how easy the diaper changing will be.

owlbystarlight avatar
Doubleheader
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

One of my favorite historical figures is Frida Kahlo! I aspire to have such an amazing sense of fashion (and attitude!) as her. She broke those gender stereotypes!

rhodabike6 avatar
Seabeast
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think the main reason for the dresses was because it made it easier to change a diaper in the days before snap fasteners were invented.

el_dee_1 avatar
El Dee
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Christening gowns etc still the same. Similar for taking your baby home from the hospital (in some places) This is all BS and it's just the fashion of the day. For children the influences generally have come from mothers but at least these days we're beginning to question why the hell we do what we do..

rhemore1 avatar
Suzanne Haigh
Community Member
2 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

In the UK it was 5 not 7 when boys were or 'de-frocked' (I think) and had their hair cut, my Gt.Grandma informed me

kim_lorton avatar
Kim Lorton
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

It is all made up and dictated by church , modesty and all kinds of crap.

angela_snelling avatar
Angela Snelling
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I have photos of my grandfather and his parents, he has curls and is wearing a white dress too, probably aged about 2. It was definitely a thing!

baritoneewart avatar
Daniel Ewart
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

You know why the dresses were a thing, right? Money and potty training. It wasn’t random. Then, the shift happened for money. Marketing and all that. The high heels thing was all about the same thing. The taller the man, the more imposing and sexually dominant. It also shapes the calf better. Ever hear the term to turn a good calf? It was sexy back then because everything else was so covered up. Today, for women, it’s about butts, calves, and appearing (shocker) more sexually dominant. Heels are all about making babies. It’s a fair series of points that unfortunately leave out good explanations for one bad assumption that we make it all up. Rarely do things in society take off that have no apparent point to them and last all that long. If it isn’t biologically related or practical, in short order it get’s tossed.

sterre_klaver avatar
Stella
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

One little chance that only adds to the sexism of it all: People didn't "just one day wake up and do the opposite". Often feminist women started adopting masculine styles to equate themselves with men and reflect their feminist views. After it became feminist fashion, sexists would start to shy away from these styles, because they wanted to avoid that equation. This is what happened to pink and high heels.

ohxrkqra avatar
Kira Okah
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Of course gender roles are social constructs, not seen anyone denying that. Gender Identity is not, and people seem to mix the two up, Gender Identity is nothing to do with Gender Roles.

bethblue12 avatar
TexasWoman
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Why did someone even come up with the idea of certain colors, outfits, names, etc are for males n others for females?

changedmoon avatar
Hugo A-niro
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I think if we saw Mitch McConnell dressed in a tutu he would still be the same old mitch

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tangy chip
Community Member
3 years ago

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nikkiowens avatar
Nikki Owens
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

That's fine and all, but the point of gender norms isn't what they ARE, it's that they EXIST. The point is the distinction/difference itself – not the specifics of the distinction, something that (as he points out) can vary wildly depending on time and place. Despite these variations in specifics, you will never find any human society that didn't have gender norms. Variation in gender norms doesn't make them meaningless or unimportant; it actually shows how deep and ubiquitous they really are.

maureenmatthew73 avatar
Maureen Matthew
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Yes culture is made up, shocking. But the problem is not socialized norms but today you are forced to believe them usually with the heavy hand of government, THAT is the problem and what so many people rebel against. And the little boys in dresses is a class thing. Only the rich could afford photos so the record starts out with the bias thinking all little boys wore white dresses, not so, just those rich enough to afford photos.. As well white anything was a sign of wealth since you needed lots of servants to clean those white dresses.

marinamercouri avatar
Beatrice Multhaupt
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Gender issues my foot! High heels were originally used by both men and women to sidestep the copious amounts of feces littering the streets because people simply dumped the contents of their chamber pots out the window. At night, the local river was usually diverted to flood the streets and wash away the mess...sort of.

wh4ok avatar
Jon S.
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

High heels started as riding aides to help keep the foot in the stirrup. Short nobel men brought them into the mainstream. What you are describing is the Chopine, an overshoe, though I can see the confusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopine

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Tres D
Community Member
3 years ago

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It's called a norm because it's what considered normal for the time. Everything changes all the time! Now people are using gender as a political talking point because all of a sudden we have 60 different genders. Its just mind games, word games and political correctness games! If you say there are only 2 genders your demonized and called a bigot. If you're honest with yourself you would be able to say that it is a proven fact that there are only 2 genders. XX and XY chromosomes don't lie, and science doesn't care about your feelings!

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KT
Community Member
3 years ago

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Well actually, red paint was used on the soles of feet to signify you were available to get down back in early human history

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QueerTheory
Community Member
3 years ago (edited)

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although its true that pink for girls and blue for boys have become established gender norms now. But there was no evidence of the reversal. I did a term paper on this topic. The author Jo B. Paoletti only found inconsistency, not a reversal. I know this information doesn’t change the original intention of this video, but its important to underline scientific misinformation.

wh4ok avatar
Jon S.
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

2) Literally just realised that quote starts with "There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject". But also found another one from the same era "use pink for the boy and blue for the girl, if you are a follower of convention."

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Ben Smith
Community Member
3 years ago

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Of course gender norms are made up. Where do you think they came from? That doesn't mean to they're not ok to use of you so choose...

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Jyri Hakola
Community Member
3 years ago

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Good point but really... Do we have lost a skill to just write the text and include only the relevant images

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Mewton’s Third Paw
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

You mean you didn’t love 16 pictures of this guy showing his widest-eye expressions with his mouth agape? Lol

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Eunice Probert
Community Member
3 years ago

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To be fair it would have been affluent parents who put their sons into dresses. Working class people wouldn't have had the time or money to put up with that nonsense. Children would have had to be useful at a much earlier age.

tiari avatar
Tiari
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

No, working class toddlers wore dresses too. Just not white frills but grey linen.

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Computernaut
Community Member
3 years ago

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It's true that some gender stereotypes are made up, this being an example. However, some of them are based on actual fact.

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Vera
Community Member
3 years ago

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mac
Community Member
3 years ago

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We live in a society where everything has a meaning. It's how we make order out of much of what goes on around us. If there is no more meaning to anything then chaos reigns.

leodomitrix avatar
Leo Domitrix
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

True, but the shifts on what makes sense can change rather suddenly, in a historical sense.

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stienbabe avatar
Becky Samuel
Community Member
3 years ago DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

Would you have preferred the article if it were written by a woman with a beard?

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Ian Smith
Community Member
3 years ago

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Hitler and the Nazis reversed the pink/blue use. Google it.

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Becca Gizmo the Squirrel
Community Member
3 years ago (edited) DotsCreated by potrace 1.15, written by Peter Selinger 2001-2017

I know stores started using it as a marketing scheme. Having to buy different toys for boys and girls.

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