Tumblr Users Tell Vegans That There’s An Ethical Way To Eat Eggs And Honey
As the common saying goes, there are different strokes for different folks, especially when it comes to food preferences. That being said, there are always people who never miss a chance to patronize others a little bit whenever they can, even when it comes to food. It’s probably safe to say that vegans get the most of everything, from plain hatred to getting bombed with scientific facts by random strangers. This story probably balances somewhere in between these two. Some people gathered on Tumblr to teach vegans a lesson and they even gathered some personal experiences to prove their point of why eating eggs and honey is not really that unethical as some vegans may think. Scroll down to explore their arguments!
Someone on Tumblr just couldn’t wrap their head around vegan eating preferences
Image credits: AdamChandler
Pointing out eating eggs and honey might be not at all that unethical
And some people sure had to try prove it wrong
Image credits: Unknown
But then this beekeeper stepped in to explain how it works
Image credits: USDA)
Image credits: Hashoo Foundation USA
Someone added up on behalf of those who raise chickens
Image credits: Justin Leonard
Image credits: Uknown
Image credits: Uknown
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Backyard eggs are one thing, but that isn't where the vast majority of eggs come from. Here's an idea, though. Let's allow people to eat or NOT eat whatever their heart desires without "shaming" or "calling out" anyone for doing what they feel is best.
But without SHAMING someone once a day, you're nothing nowadays. How could we not? *sarcasm off* I hate that nowadays it's either shaming, calling out, or roasting. Everywhere. -.-
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I have chickens too! The eggs are way better quality than any store bought I've ever had, because the chickens are actually well taken care of.
I farm, I raise chickens and honeybees amongst my livestock. What I think is hilarious is that vegans believe that almonds and avocados are vegan, but they aren’t. Every season, some of my own beeboxes are shipped with thousands and thousands of others for the fruit flowering season throughout Florida, the Southwestern US and Mexico. All of those almond and avocado orchards, pollinated by my bees, then shipped back to me so that I can extract that floral honey. Bees work for your fruit and nuts, people.
Resting, the very strict vegans are aware of this and won't eat avocados etc. The vegan because trying to help environment won't eat food that has been transported huge distances.
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Regardless of the rest of the posts, chickens did not evolve to lay an infertile egg most days. Who could possibly think that's a 'fact'? They had breeding seasons and realistic clutch sizes like every other bird. But just like all livestock, layer chickens were bred by humans over time to produce more of their desirable product. Layers were bred to produce more eggs, cows to produce more milk, broiler chickens to have larger breasts, pigs to have less hair, beef cattle to be more docile and have marbled meat, etc. These are facts. No need to get angry and try to 'prove' vegans wrong because you don't understand how domestication works.
yes But these facts you refer to as if they prove your point in actuality don’t. These animals developing these traits isn’t indicative of any wrong doing. Yes they developed these traits to accommodate us but if it wasn’t for us providing them with shelter and assuring mutually that both species survived, then cows wouldn’t have developed the ways they have. If cows wouldn’t have grown docile they would have gone extinct because no humans would have protected them from predators or provided them With shelter. Chickens evolved the way they did because becoming more domestic (laying more eggs and becoming less fearful of humans) was the best way to ensure their species survival. Chickens and humans have helped each other out a lot, same With beef. If it wasn’t for humans farming these animals and our history of doing it for 10,000 years we wouldn’t even have cities to live in. No need to pretend you have an actual understanding of something when you are barely familiar with chapter 1
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As a beekeeper, just to correct the one beek from article. The queen wouldn't just die from lack of space due to being nectar bound. She would swarm, creating a new colony elsewhere with most of the workforce, older foraging bees. Then the young bees stay, and will raise a new queen. They even make special queen cells prior to swarming which wouldn't be affected by being nectar bound. Right after the mother colony swarms, there would be no foragers remaining for a bit, so the queenless hive would eat through some of the nectar which was binding space for the mother colony, and prep the empty space for the new queen to begin laying in approximately 2 weeks from the time the mother colony swarms. Back to a queen dying because of nowhere to lay, this is untrue. In small colonies or big colonies with no comb (ie a big swarm) once the queen is being fed royal jelly she is going to lay regardless of if there is room, and her attendents will likely eat those eggs to conserve the resource.
Frankly, many production driven beekeepers do cull queen bees who have what they perceive to be as slow production. It's wrong to imply that it's ethically responsible to harvest in order to not kill a queen (false). Granted it is important to provide enough space in a man made hive, and in many situations feeding disadvantaged colonies is none the less the way to go. But many beekeepers, especially novice, tend to be so production oriented that they do harvest at the expense of the well being of their hives, at inopportune times, and when they need it most.
Load More Replies... For most people it's simply not feasible to get eggs from backyard chickens. And unless you can actually visit the place it's hard to know how the animals are treated. I've seen a complete a*****e of a farmer in a village lock up a sheep in a tiny wooden shed that was so small it could only move a step in each direction! This was in the middle of a pasture too. That sheep was screaming every day all day. And he could, in theory have sold the meat as happy, organic and farm grown since he owned a farm...
Well, but that's kinda the point being made. It's "not feasible" for many because it's rare. It's rare (in part) because it's not always profitable. More support = more profits = more feasible. No, it's not as simple as I just presented it, but it's part of the truth. Support local and local becomes more sustainable, leading to more options.
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I dont like the title of this topic, 'users explain the facts behind why it is ethical to eat honey and eggs'. For me morals and ethics are someones personal values. Also, I dont understand why a vegan explaining their personal morals is wrong, but omni's explaining their morals would be okay. They're doing to same imo. What if we both listen to each other and have an open mind? And seriously people, of course a beekeeper is going to defend what he does. If you cant not stand behind your own action youre not on the right path. But that doesnt mean other people have to agree with the beekeeper or what he says is the truth. If a serial killer explains why it is okay to kill people, that doesnt mean we have to believe him even though he is convinced it is the truth. Dont just simply believe everything the internet and what other people say and find your own truth.
Vegans don't eat eggs because male chicks are usually killed after sex is determined (I think this is pretty well documented so how the first Tumblr posts missed this, I don't know). The fact that there are unfertilised eggs spare doesn't change this, and I'd rather not support a systems that involves it. Even if you had backyard eggs, you might have bought hens for the purpose, or you might have nobly saved them and just want to give away what's "spare" - I can't know and I'm not willing to go on an undercover operation to see how you really treat your chickens. It's a lot easier to just not eat eggs. I'm literally doing it right now. I might even eat something that's not an egg in a minute. I know, try to stay calm folks.
Also there are a lot of illogical arguments in some of the Tumblr posts, but one of the most frustrating is the thread running through a few of the posts along the lines of 'local farmers are trying to be kinder to their animals and if you don't support them then the animals on those farms will suffer', which makes no sense. I appreciate that these comments are well-meaning, but I shouldn't give money to people so they can afford to do something I consider to be unethical.
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Factory farms induce extra laying cycles on chickens that were not specifically bred for that.
“I’d rather be the local farmer.” So would I, which is why I am.
Load More Replies... I think its sad that some people feel the need to "prove a person wrong" to a person who respects the way it goes in nature just for them to justify using or killing the animal. Nature doesn't need us humans. Live and let live. and by that I mean live, not kill for taste.
This is an argument that I see used against hunters all of the time, but it suffers a logical fallacy. Humans have decimated the natural predators population, so we need to hunt deer to keep their numbers in check, otherwise they can specifically damage the local ecology. Furthermore, we have an ever growing wild boar population, as well as other invasive species that need to be put down to stop further ecological damages, but some animal rights groups believe that hunting is wrong. In some cases, "live and let live" is not an option, and wasting that meat would be a shame. Im not supporting big game hunters who just want a head to put on their wall, or anyone who poaches, but if the hunt is legal and in line with the state wildlife commission's rulings, it is designed to help the ecology, not hurt it.
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Seriously who cares, if vegans or anyone chooses not to eat something for whatever reason then so be it. Just like vegans need to understand that others can eat what they want because it is their choice.
What vegans actually understand is that the argument "it is their choice" does not include the choice of animals - who would choose to live free of horrific lives of pain, disease, cruelty and fear before being killed in sometimes excruciatingly painful ways.
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What I think is hilarious is all the nonvegans in the comments calling on people, vegan or otherwise, to buy their s**t and support them and somehow that will take on megafarms. Your problem isn't that less than 5 percent of the population that don't eat eggs and honey and won't buy from you, your problem is that capitalism incentivises monopoly by crushing competition through various means including straight up petitioning the local ordanamces to restrict certain breeds as "pests" eg Bakers Green Acres problem with their board. That's why Butterball sells 4 million turkeys the day before Thanksgiving, and noone gives a s**t about your podunk hobby farm.
Oh, and for the record, on average I clear $500 a day on my 140 acre “hobby,” Marena. What was that you were saying again about capitalism?
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One of my friends is the most strict vegan I know- for her self. Her cats eat canned foods made from only the very best meats, for example. She never, ever proselytizes or demands others cater to her desires. She has even offered to bring safe food for her to eat when she came over for dinner, but we offered to cook exactly to her needs and she accepted that. One of the nicest dinners we've had! She was amazed that we'd want to accommodate her but I pointed out I have a pretty limited diet, too, and that we wanted to support her in her choices. Another pair of friends had them most gorgeous organic farm. Every animal was friendly, safe, beautifully feathered or furred, given species-appropriate foods to eat, etc. They all had BIG enclosures with shelter, clean water to drink or swim in, and were respected for their gifts of eggs, meat or help in working the land. Slaughtering was done with the most expert and deliberately careful way so that suffering was at an extreme minimum.
Real Life for wild animals of any species is generally hard and dangerous. Most of us would prefer to be entirely free ourselves and not be slaves, and I totally get why vegans don't want to use animal products. If I could be a Breatharian and survive I'd do it. But it's not possible. Life and death are inextricably intertwined. The only way to mitigate it is to be as humane and respectful of ALL our food sources as possible and try not to damage anything we're working with.
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If beekeepers took all of the honey, the bees would just all die, which is completely contrary to any of the reasons to keep bees.
Many commercial beekeepers take an excessive amount of honey, replace it with sugar water so that the bees don't die, but don't receive the full nutrients that they themselves created for themselves. This weakens for profit honeybees. They can then breed with and weaken wild bees, which hurts all of us as decreasing pollination impacts our available food supply.
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I'm a beekeeper. Not because I want make money, we basically give our honey for free to family and friends, and I can totally confirm that
I keep bees primarily to ensure crop success for my animal feed and orchard.
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Also, I think some vegans (not all of them, obviously, but some of them) don't understand that you can't have fruits and vegetables without bees. We rely on bees to pollinate our crops. And since most of the wild bees in the world are not doing so great, we really need beekeepers to help sustain the bee population, or our food supply will be in deep trouble.
It's almost always selected hens (except extremely low % rescued), all male are killed.
False. I raise all my C**k’s to maturity, *then* I butcher them. Most other producers I know do the same. No need to waste good meat.
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With ten miles of where i live there are 3 different sets of bee hives. They are productive and they harvest the honey. Honey is a crop and the bees are the animals they need care just like other animals.
Most of us don't have the time and resources to keep their own fluffy little chickens in their own backyard and to treat them adequately. Nearly all eggs that you consume come from exploitative factory farms that treat their birds like s**t. They die like flies in there. Sunlight is not available. If they have an option to go outside, there will purposedly be no trees, so the chickens can't seek cover, their fear of predatory birds will keep them crowded inside. (It is not economic to let them out.) Many people just don't want to contribute to those s****y circumstances. Accept their decision.
They were not saying raise your own chickens, but however go to a local farm (if there is one) and buy the eggs from that farm to support that farmer.
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Yeah, I don't really care. I buy what will feed my family the most. If cage free eggs are on sale that week I'll buy it, if it's factory farm on sale I'll buy that. Again what's funny about this is the nit picking by a group of people walking around with smartphones using components mined by slave labor and sipping lattes from coffee beans supposedly produced by one of several "free trade" growers who have been repeated busted for human trafficking. Not to mention the fast fashion most are probably sporting to get that slightly "carefree hipster" look so popular "with the youths" produced by elementary kids in the third world....but sure lecture me on eggs and honey to make all your other bad consumer choices seem less terrible.
I would LOVE to have my own chickens. But where I live, there are a LOT of coyotes. And zoning laws. I buy "cage free" or whatever the "best choice du jour" is for my egg needs. Which aren't that much.
I wouldn’t mind raisin them myself but I’m stuck in an apartment with nowhere to put them :/
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As part of a beekeeping family, the ignorance of some people astounds me. Take all of their honey? SMFH 🤦🏼♀️
I thought the same thing when I read the original comments. Evidently people believe that starting new colonies is cheap and easy. I wish it were; I’d have three times as many hives.
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There's too many generalizations in this world and not enough people that put their heads into research. Don't go shaming people and their lifestyles until you have all the facts to back it up. Misinformation leads to strife and not taking the time to educate yourself makes you look like a fool. And if you're going to act all outraged without checking your facts..prepare to be educated by those who did.
Chickens were bred to lay daily post WWII before then Ducks were more reliable egg producers.
There are still those of us who raise heritage breeds. And duck eggs are delicious and plentiful. Unfortunately, it’s difficult in the US to sell duck eggs to anyone but immigrants Asian people and exclusive restaurants; there’s a weird prejudice about eggs in American culture at large.
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I'm vegan and I don't have strong opinions about eating honey. I simply don't eat it because I find the idea gross. Eggs, on the other hand, I don't believe can be ethical if you buy it. If I at some point have chickens then I'll probably take the eggs and replace them with fake eggs if the chickens want to sit on them and feed to real eggs to dogs or another animal. In this situation, taking their eggs is ethical. but the problem is when there is a demand for eggs. When there is a demand then companies will seize the opportunity and do anything to make money. There will always be factory farms filled with abused birds if there is a demand for chicken eggs. The other problem is the male chicks. What happens to them? They aren't wanted, they aren't needed. They get thrown into a grinder hours after they hatch. Backyard chickens are all females because the males were killed. Either the people buy the eggs and get rid of the males or they buy chicks and the males have already been killed
Letting broody chickens sit on ceramic eggs doesn’t stop them from laying, it actually encourages them to lay more. The average clutch is between twenty and forty eggs, and even if you put a pile of ceramics in a nesting box, no chicken will be fooled for long. Hens don’t just sit on eggs, they manage them; they turn them daily, and push the eggs that die or fail to develop out of the nest. The primary purpose of ceramic eggs to to train young hens where to lay and to discourage both hens and roos from eating eggs before they can be collected. All of my rooster chicks are raised to maturity, butchered, frozen and sold as broilers; it’s a waste of money to kill them as chicks.
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This is all great but the real point of veganism is to not exploit sentient beings whenever possible, period. I don't care where the eggs come from, humans do not need to eat eggs. Backyard eggs from a rescue hen? Eat your heart out, fill your heart up with that cholesterol. But even small scale farmers who treat their animals well are using animals for personal gain for no reason. They are breeding extra animals for continued profit. There's no reason to eat eggs and there are many reasons not to, so I don't. How is that hard to grasp? The honey thing has always been too confusing for me, we don't really know bees are even sentient. And we do know that bees need to exist for the world to function. So even though I am a vegan I do buy local honey from a family friend who keeps bees to pollinate his crops. He only sells a small amount of honey because it isn't a part of his main business. But it supports his small business, supports the ecosystem, and helps keep my allergies in check.
Personal gain for no reason??? Are you high? There’s a reason. There’s a whole list of reasons. First of all, even eggs are better than nothing nutritionally; they are nutrient dense, species appropriate food that humans have used for tens of thousands of years. My three egg omelet made in butter will carry me through the whole day, whilst you will be noshing on smoothies and salads from sun up to sundown and still feel hungry. Your diet kills billions of animals every year from the time the first discer hits the ground til the last harvester has been cleaned and put away for the winter. You exploit animals just like every other human, you just refuse to look at it.
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I have to admit, the honeycomb pics are disgusting! It's worth it for honey tho 😋 XD I can ever be a bee keeper.
Backyard chickens are not without cruelty either. i also had chickens before i knew better. When you begin your flock, you buy chicks. Did you ever wonder what happens to the male chicks who are hatched at hatcheries? Research it, and yeah, i've seen it first hand. Not all hens will brood eggs either. Being broody is one of the things they have tried to breed out of them. Some will though. with the average hatch resulting in more males than females, what does the backyard egg raiser do with those male chicks? The options are to keep them, and soon be over run by roosters, sell them off and others do the dirty work of slaughtering them, or raise the and slaughter them yourself. and males of egg laying varieties, not being intended for that purpose, do not produce a whole lot of meat. so, one must consider all the facts.
How neat that these egg enthusiasts "forget" that most of the brothers of these "backyard chickens" have been killed as chicks! And yes, that happens everywhere.
This "article" is just a non-fact-checked accounting of a he-said-she-said on the internet. No matter what excuses we make, domestic chickens are bred for our benefit over their own, as are domestic honey bees, which are displacing more ecologically important wild populations. Acknowledging actual facts doesn't mean you have to stop eating what you love. It means we live in an imperfect world, where awareness is important. At least (most) vegans aren't lying to themselves. That's a good start.
Have to say, I've had chickens, and eventually their overlaying does cause them to prolapse more often than not. So yeah it's nice to rescue them (which I did, they were ex bat's) but we have drastically over bred them into these weird creatures that lay daily. It's a lot for their bodies to take. Funnily enough, owning chickens was enough to put me off ever eating eggs again. That and the fact you're just eating an ovulation, which I eventually found weird. It's definitely better than buying store bought, but ethical? Not sure.
I'm a vegan, and I have a friend that has a small farm. She gives me chicken eggs every week, and I eat them with no guilt. I know her chickens are well cared for, and treated humanely.
No vegan here but chicken owner...the “they have to lay eggs more often than they are made for“ IS actually true and the “my grandpa bla bla“ stupid...originally bushchickens lay around 8 eggs and become broody. Industrial chickens BRED for that purpuse lay up to 250-300/year. They are abused through genetics the last few houndred years, not millions. Still, it's a waste not to eat them as the chickens have to lay them anyway...
Not all commercial producers use industrial breeds. There are those of us who deliberately raise heritage. For the most part, laying seasons depend on geography, and increase or decrease numbers as a result. Chickens do not lay when the weather is cold and there’s less than 12 hours of sunlight without assistance.
Load More Replies... Beekeeper here. If I don't replace the the honey I take from the hive by feeding the bees sugar water, the colony dies. The FUD above seems to derive from different customs in different climates.
I don’t. I eat the yummy thing that came out of their vent.
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Wow, y'all really make sure to make people who genuinely want to help animals seem like the enemy. Male chicks are dropped into grinders, gassed or just thrown into the garbage alive because they don't lay eggs. This is standard practice in hatcheries - which is where pretty much all hens come from nowadays. If you don't hatch your own chickens and keep all of the males until their natural death, then you're still contributing to this problem (unless your chickens are rescues). Also, hens easily get deficient in calcium from having to produce so many egg shells, and they produce even more when those eggs are taken from them. Feeding them back their own eggs helps restore some of the nutrients. Of course keeping your own "backyard hens" is much, much better than buying eggs from the store, and most vegans would applaud you for giving your hens a good life, but please don't act like it doesn't do any damage.
Do you actually know what natural death is for a “male chicken” (which is a c**k)??? Let me share with you, since I have two chicken houses at my place and have raised chickens for most of my fifty-year life: c***s become aggressive as they come through their fourth molt to maturity. There is a pecking order in any flock, whether it’s c***s, hens or a mixture thereof. C***s fight for dominance. As they grow, their spurs grow, harden, and become as sharp as a stiletto blade. C***s fight each other from sun up to sun down, slice each other to ribbons, blind each other, and go after injured lessers until they fold in bleeding, gasping lumps of torn feathers, torn skin and mangled flesh. That’s *if* the raccoons, foxes and coyotes don’t take them out first. My Roos are raised until four to six months before they start fighting nasty, at which point they are humanely butchered, spatchcocked and frozen. And any producer who isn’t giving daily oystershell to their poultry isn’t getting any eggs anyway.
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I like this and I imagine, in time, there will be a sensible and moderate version of a good diet, that won't cause posturing or criticism.
I think beekeepers like this are the exception not the rule. I wish more would follow their lead.
The difference between vegans and meat eaters is a difference in degree, not a difference in kind. We eat things, all of which used to be alive, that are different enough from ourselves so that we don't feel uncomfortable. It's up to each individual to determine how different something needs to be in order to exploit it for nutrition (or any other reason -- pets, for example, are exploited for emotional reasons). By the way, domesticated animals exploit us for nutrition, too. It's obvious to me that veganism started simply as a way for some vegetarians to win arguments against other vegetarians.
Animals are not "things"and this argument is a logical fallacy. Plants have no nervous systems, cannot feel or express pain and do not run from being attacked - nor do they make heroic leaps over slaughter house fences in desperate attempts to save their lives - much as you would, were you in that situation.
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No, it’s not an “egg period.” But you keep on talking nonsense. Cholesterol is most definitely needed to survive. Every cell in your body is dependent on cholesterol for basic functioning. Without cholesterol, you cannot produce the hormones necessary for homeostasis; even more importantly, without cholesterol, you cannot convert precursors of vitamins - carotenoids, cobalamins, etc. - into the nutrients your body needs to be strong and healthy. The reason that vegans age so badly and have such poor skin quality is because they are deficient in cholesterol and collagen intake, which are the necessary building blocks for everything structural and vital to human life and health.
Load More Replies... The definition of the verb “exploit” means “to make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).” You exploit every day. The vegetables and herbs you choose to buy at the supermarket exploit the world’s arable land, the indigenous peoples who give up access because of your demands (quinoa from Peru, mangoes from the Congo, for example). The t-shirt you are wearing exploits thousands of gallons of water in the production of cotton used in making the knit fabric, but you will b***h at the same amount of water being used to produce a steer. You call other people dumbshits whilst engaging in your own mindless forms of exploitation whilst assuming that you alone are enlightened. I farm, I sequester carbon. I recycle and compost everything. I use no plastics, I conserve...and I still raise and eat meat. My ethics are sound and well-researched. My choice not to eat babies is in the sense that most cannibals eat other humans not for energy and nutrient density, but to take in the soul.
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You might be curious to know that there are hundreds of breeds of chickens - some lay very few eggs (fifty or so a year), some like Australorps have been known to hit over three hundred, which is a gigantic amount. You can still get jungle fowl, the original stock for the chicken, though the males are insanely aggressive - much more so than even a normal rooster, and I've seen normal roosters slaughter each other when they'd been adorable friends as chicks.
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Backyard eggs are one thing, but that isn't where the vast majority of eggs come from. Here's an idea, though. Let's allow people to eat or NOT eat whatever their heart desires without "shaming" or "calling out" anyone for doing what they feel is best.
But without SHAMING someone once a day, you're nothing nowadays. How could we not? *sarcasm off* I hate that nowadays it's either shaming, calling out, or roasting. Everywhere. -.-
Load More Replies... I have chickens too! The eggs are way better quality than any store bought I've ever had, because the chickens are actually well taken care of.
I farm, I raise chickens and honeybees amongst my livestock. What I think is hilarious is that vegans believe that almonds and avocados are vegan, but they aren’t. Every season, some of my own beeboxes are shipped with thousands and thousands of others for the fruit flowering season throughout Florida, the Southwestern US and Mexico. All of those almond and avocado orchards, pollinated by my bees, then shipped back to me so that I can extract that floral honey. Bees work for your fruit and nuts, people.
Resting, the very strict vegans are aware of this and won't eat avocados etc. The vegan because trying to help environment won't eat food that has been transported huge distances.
Load More Replies... Regardless of the rest of the posts, chickens did not evolve to lay an infertile egg most days. Who could possibly think that's a 'fact'? They had breeding seasons and realistic clutch sizes like every other bird. But just like all livestock, layer chickens were bred by humans over time to produce more of their desirable product. Layers were bred to produce more eggs, cows to produce more milk, broiler chickens to have larger breasts, pigs to have less hair, beef cattle to be more docile and have marbled meat, etc. These are facts. No need to get angry and try to 'prove' vegans wrong because you don't understand how domestication works.
yes But these facts you refer to as if they prove your point in actuality don’t. These animals developing these traits isn’t indicative of any wrong doing. Yes they developed these traits to accommodate us but if it wasn’t for us providing them with shelter and assuring mutually that both species survived, then cows wouldn’t have developed the ways they have. If cows wouldn’t have grown docile they would have gone extinct because no humans would have protected them from predators or provided them With shelter. Chickens evolved the way they did because becoming more domestic (laying more eggs and becoming less fearful of humans) was the best way to ensure their species survival. Chickens and humans have helped each other out a lot, same With beef. If it wasn’t for humans farming these animals and our history of doing it for 10,000 years we wouldn’t even have cities to live in. No need to pretend you have an actual understanding of something when you are barely familiar with chapter 1
Load More Replies... As a beekeeper, just to correct the one beek from article. The queen wouldn't just die from lack of space due to being nectar bound. She would swarm, creating a new colony elsewhere with most of the workforce, older foraging bees. Then the young bees stay, and will raise a new queen. They even make special queen cells prior to swarming which wouldn't be affected by being nectar bound. Right after the mother colony swarms, there would be no foragers remaining for a bit, so the queenless hive would eat through some of the nectar which was binding space for the mother colony, and prep the empty space for the new queen to begin laying in approximately 2 weeks from the time the mother colony swarms. Back to a queen dying because of nowhere to lay, this is untrue. In small colonies or big colonies with no comb (ie a big swarm) once the queen is being fed royal jelly she is going to lay regardless of if there is room, and her attendents will likely eat those eggs to conserve the resource.
Frankly, many production driven beekeepers do cull queen bees who have what they perceive to be as slow production. It's wrong to imply that it's ethically responsible to harvest in order to not kill a queen (false). Granted it is important to provide enough space in a man made hive, and in many situations feeding disadvantaged colonies is none the less the way to go. But many beekeepers, especially novice, tend to be so production oriented that they do harvest at the expense of the well being of their hives, at inopportune times, and when they need it most.
Load More Replies... For most people it's simply not feasible to get eggs from backyard chickens. And unless you can actually visit the place it's hard to know how the animals are treated. I've seen a complete a*****e of a farmer in a village lock up a sheep in a tiny wooden shed that was so small it could only move a step in each direction! This was in the middle of a pasture too. That sheep was screaming every day all day. And he could, in theory have sold the meat as happy, organic and farm grown since he owned a farm...
Well, but that's kinda the point being made. It's "not feasible" for many because it's rare. It's rare (in part) because it's not always profitable. More support = more profits = more feasible. No, it's not as simple as I just presented it, but it's part of the truth. Support local and local becomes more sustainable, leading to more options.
Load More Replies... I dont like the title of this topic, 'users explain the facts behind why it is ethical to eat honey and eggs'. For me morals and ethics are someones personal values. Also, I dont understand why a vegan explaining their personal morals is wrong, but omni's explaining their morals would be okay. They're doing to same imo. What if we both listen to each other and have an open mind? And seriously people, of course a beekeeper is going to defend what he does. If you cant not stand behind your own action youre not on the right path. But that doesnt mean other people have to agree with the beekeeper or what he says is the truth. If a serial killer explains why it is okay to kill people, that doesnt mean we have to believe him even though he is convinced it is the truth. Dont just simply believe everything the internet and what other people say and find your own truth.
Vegans don't eat eggs because male chicks are usually killed after sex is determined (I think this is pretty well documented so how the first Tumblr posts missed this, I don't know). The fact that there are unfertilised eggs spare doesn't change this, and I'd rather not support a systems that involves it. Even if you had backyard eggs, you might have bought hens for the purpose, or you might have nobly saved them and just want to give away what's "spare" - I can't know and I'm not willing to go on an undercover operation to see how you really treat your chickens. It's a lot easier to just not eat eggs. I'm literally doing it right now. I might even eat something that's not an egg in a minute. I know, try to stay calm folks.
Also there are a lot of illogical arguments in some of the Tumblr posts, but one of the most frustrating is the thread running through a few of the posts along the lines of 'local farmers are trying to be kinder to their animals and if you don't support them then the animals on those farms will suffer', which makes no sense. I appreciate that these comments are well-meaning, but I shouldn't give money to people so they can afford to do something I consider to be unethical.
Load More Replies... Factory farms induce extra laying cycles on chickens that were not specifically bred for that.
“I’d rather be the local farmer.” So would I, which is why I am.
Load More Replies... I think its sad that some people feel the need to "prove a person wrong" to a person who respects the way it goes in nature just for them to justify using or killing the animal. Nature doesn't need us humans. Live and let live. and by that I mean live, not kill for taste.
This is an argument that I see used against hunters all of the time, but it suffers a logical fallacy. Humans have decimated the natural predators population, so we need to hunt deer to keep their numbers in check, otherwise they can specifically damage the local ecology. Furthermore, we have an ever growing wild boar population, as well as other invasive species that need to be put down to stop further ecological damages, but some animal rights groups believe that hunting is wrong. In some cases, "live and let live" is not an option, and wasting that meat would be a shame. Im not supporting big game hunters who just want a head to put on their wall, or anyone who poaches, but if the hunt is legal and in line with the state wildlife commission's rulings, it is designed to help the ecology, not hurt it.
Load More Replies... Seriously who cares, if vegans or anyone chooses not to eat something for whatever reason then so be it. Just like vegans need to understand that others can eat what they want because it is their choice.
What vegans actually understand is that the argument "it is their choice" does not include the choice of animals - who would choose to live free of horrific lives of pain, disease, cruelty and fear before being killed in sometimes excruciatingly painful ways.
Load More Replies... What I think is hilarious is all the nonvegans in the comments calling on people, vegan or otherwise, to buy their s**t and support them and somehow that will take on megafarms. Your problem isn't that less than 5 percent of the population that don't eat eggs and honey and won't buy from you, your problem is that capitalism incentivises monopoly by crushing competition through various means including straight up petitioning the local ordanamces to restrict certain breeds as "pests" eg Bakers Green Acres problem with their board. That's why Butterball sells 4 million turkeys the day before Thanksgiving, and noone gives a s**t about your podunk hobby farm.
Oh, and for the record, on average I clear $500 a day on my 140 acre “hobby,” Marena. What was that you were saying again about capitalism?
Load More Replies... One of my friends is the most strict vegan I know- for her self. Her cats eat canned foods made from only the very best meats, for example. She never, ever proselytizes or demands others cater to her desires. She has even offered to bring safe food for her to eat when she came over for dinner, but we offered to cook exactly to her needs and she accepted that. One of the nicest dinners we've had! She was amazed that we'd want to accommodate her but I pointed out I have a pretty limited diet, too, and that we wanted to support her in her choices. Another pair of friends had them most gorgeous organic farm. Every animal was friendly, safe, beautifully feathered or furred, given species-appropriate foods to eat, etc. They all had BIG enclosures with shelter, clean water to drink or swim in, and were respected for their gifts of eggs, meat or help in working the land. Slaughtering was done with the most expert and deliberately careful way so that suffering was at an extreme minimum.
Real Life for wild animals of any species is generally hard and dangerous. Most of us would prefer to be entirely free ourselves and not be slaves, and I totally get why vegans don't want to use animal products. If I could be a Breatharian and survive I'd do it. But it's not possible. Life and death are inextricably intertwined. The only way to mitigate it is to be as humane and respectful of ALL our food sources as possible and try not to damage anything we're working with.
Load More Replies... If beekeepers took all of the honey, the bees would just all die, which is completely contrary to any of the reasons to keep bees.
Many commercial beekeepers take an excessive amount of honey, replace it with sugar water so that the bees don't die, but don't receive the full nutrients that they themselves created for themselves. This weakens for profit honeybees. They can then breed with and weaken wild bees, which hurts all of us as decreasing pollination impacts our available food supply.
Load More Replies... I'm a beekeeper. Not because I want make money, we basically give our honey for free to family and friends, and I can totally confirm that
I keep bees primarily to ensure crop success for my animal feed and orchard.
Load More Replies... Also, I think some vegans (not all of them, obviously, but some of them) don't understand that you can't have fruits and vegetables without bees. We rely on bees to pollinate our crops. And since most of the wild bees in the world are not doing so great, we really need beekeepers to help sustain the bee population, or our food supply will be in deep trouble.
It's almost always selected hens (except extremely low % rescued), all male are killed.
False. I raise all my C**k’s to maturity, *then* I butcher them. Most other producers I know do the same. No need to waste good meat.
Load More Replies... With ten miles of where i live there are 3 different sets of bee hives. They are productive and they harvest the honey. Honey is a crop and the bees are the animals they need care just like other animals.
Most of us don't have the time and resources to keep their own fluffy little chickens in their own backyard and to treat them adequately. Nearly all eggs that you consume come from exploitative factory farms that treat their birds like s**t. They die like flies in there. Sunlight is not available. If they have an option to go outside, there will purposedly be no trees, so the chickens can't seek cover, their fear of predatory birds will keep them crowded inside. (It is not economic to let them out.) Many people just don't want to contribute to those s****y circumstances. Accept their decision.
They were not saying raise your own chickens, but however go to a local farm (if there is one) and buy the eggs from that farm to support that farmer.
Load More Replies... Yeah, I don't really care. I buy what will feed my family the most. If cage free eggs are on sale that week I'll buy it, if it's factory farm on sale I'll buy that. Again what's funny about this is the nit picking by a group of people walking around with smartphones using components mined by slave labor and sipping lattes from coffee beans supposedly produced by one of several "free trade" growers who have been repeated busted for human trafficking. Not to mention the fast fashion most are probably sporting to get that slightly "carefree hipster" look so popular "with the youths" produced by elementary kids in the third world....but sure lecture me on eggs and honey to make all your other bad consumer choices seem less terrible.
I would LOVE to have my own chickens. But where I live, there are a LOT of coyotes. And zoning laws. I buy "cage free" or whatever the "best choice du jour" is for my egg needs. Which aren't that much.
I wouldn’t mind raisin them myself but I’m stuck in an apartment with nowhere to put them :/
Load More Replies... As part of a beekeeping family, the ignorance of some people astounds me. Take all of their honey? SMFH 🤦🏼♀️
I thought the same thing when I read the original comments. Evidently people believe that starting new colonies is cheap and easy. I wish it were; I’d have three times as many hives.
Load More Replies... There's too many generalizations in this world and not enough people that put their heads into research. Don't go shaming people and their lifestyles until you have all the facts to back it up. Misinformation leads to strife and not taking the time to educate yourself makes you look like a fool. And if you're going to act all outraged without checking your facts..prepare to be educated by those who did.
Chickens were bred to lay daily post WWII before then Ducks were more reliable egg producers.
There are still those of us who raise heritage breeds. And duck eggs are delicious and plentiful. Unfortunately, it’s difficult in the US to sell duck eggs to anyone but immigrants Asian people and exclusive restaurants; there’s a weird prejudice about eggs in American culture at large.
Load More Replies... I'm vegan and I don't have strong opinions about eating honey. I simply don't eat it because I find the idea gross. Eggs, on the other hand, I don't believe can be ethical if you buy it. If I at some point have chickens then I'll probably take the eggs and replace them with fake eggs if the chickens want to sit on them and feed to real eggs to dogs or another animal. In this situation, taking their eggs is ethical. but the problem is when there is a demand for eggs. When there is a demand then companies will seize the opportunity and do anything to make money. There will always be factory farms filled with abused birds if there is a demand for chicken eggs. The other problem is the male chicks. What happens to them? They aren't wanted, they aren't needed. They get thrown into a grinder hours after they hatch. Backyard chickens are all females because the males were killed. Either the people buy the eggs and get rid of the males or they buy chicks and the males have already been killed
Letting broody chickens sit on ceramic eggs doesn’t stop them from laying, it actually encourages them to lay more. The average clutch is between twenty and forty eggs, and even if you put a pile of ceramics in a nesting box, no chicken will be fooled for long. Hens don’t just sit on eggs, they manage them; they turn them daily, and push the eggs that die or fail to develop out of the nest. The primary purpose of ceramic eggs to to train young hens where to lay and to discourage both hens and roos from eating eggs before they can be collected. All of my rooster chicks are raised to maturity, butchered, frozen and sold as broilers; it’s a waste of money to kill them as chicks.
Load More Replies... This is all great but the real point of veganism is to not exploit sentient beings whenever possible, period. I don't care where the eggs come from, humans do not need to eat eggs. Backyard eggs from a rescue hen? Eat your heart out, fill your heart up with that cholesterol. But even small scale farmers who treat their animals well are using animals for personal gain for no reason. They are breeding extra animals for continued profit. There's no reason to eat eggs and there are many reasons not to, so I don't. How is that hard to grasp? The honey thing has always been too confusing for me, we don't really know bees are even sentient. And we do know that bees need to exist for the world to function. So even though I am a vegan I do buy local honey from a family friend who keeps bees to pollinate his crops. He only sells a small amount of honey because it isn't a part of his main business. But it supports his small business, supports the ecosystem, and helps keep my allergies in check.
Personal gain for no reason??? Are you high? There’s a reason. There’s a whole list of reasons. First of all, even eggs are better than nothing nutritionally; they are nutrient dense, species appropriate food that humans have used for tens of thousands of years. My three egg omelet made in butter will carry me through the whole day, whilst you will be noshing on smoothies and salads from sun up to sundown and still feel hungry. Your diet kills billions of animals every year from the time the first discer hits the ground til the last harvester has been cleaned and put away for the winter. You exploit animals just like every other human, you just refuse to look at it.
Load More Replies... I have to admit, the honeycomb pics are disgusting! It's worth it for honey tho 😋 XD I can ever be a bee keeper.
Backyard chickens are not without cruelty either. i also had chickens before i knew better. When you begin your flock, you buy chicks. Did you ever wonder what happens to the male chicks who are hatched at hatcheries? Research it, and yeah, i've seen it first hand. Not all hens will brood eggs either. Being broody is one of the things they have tried to breed out of them. Some will though. with the average hatch resulting in more males than females, what does the backyard egg raiser do with those male chicks? The options are to keep them, and soon be over run by roosters, sell them off and others do the dirty work of slaughtering them, or raise the and slaughter them yourself. and males of egg laying varieties, not being intended for that purpose, do not produce a whole lot of meat. so, one must consider all the facts.
How neat that these egg enthusiasts "forget" that most of the brothers of these "backyard chickens" have been killed as chicks! And yes, that happens everywhere.
This "article" is just a non-fact-checked accounting of a he-said-she-said on the internet. No matter what excuses we make, domestic chickens are bred for our benefit over their own, as are domestic honey bees, which are displacing more ecologically important wild populations. Acknowledging actual facts doesn't mean you have to stop eating what you love. It means we live in an imperfect world, where awareness is important. At least (most) vegans aren't lying to themselves. That's a good start.
Have to say, I've had chickens, and eventually their overlaying does cause them to prolapse more often than not. So yeah it's nice to rescue them (which I did, they were ex bat's) but we have drastically over bred them into these weird creatures that lay daily. It's a lot for their bodies to take. Funnily enough, owning chickens was enough to put me off ever eating eggs again. That and the fact you're just eating an ovulation, which I eventually found weird. It's definitely better than buying store bought, but ethical? Not sure.
I'm a vegan, and I have a friend that has a small farm. She gives me chicken eggs every week, and I eat them with no guilt. I know her chickens are well cared for, and treated humanely.
No vegan here but chicken owner...the “they have to lay eggs more often than they are made for“ IS actually true and the “my grandpa bla bla“ stupid...originally bushchickens lay around 8 eggs and become broody. Industrial chickens BRED for that purpuse lay up to 250-300/year. They are abused through genetics the last few houndred years, not millions. Still, it's a waste not to eat them as the chickens have to lay them anyway...
Not all commercial producers use industrial breeds. There are those of us who deliberately raise heritage. For the most part, laying seasons depend on geography, and increase or decrease numbers as a result. Chickens do not lay when the weather is cold and there’s less than 12 hours of sunlight without assistance.
Load More Replies... Beekeeper here. If I don't replace the the honey I take from the hive by feeding the bees sugar water, the colony dies. The FUD above seems to derive from different customs in different climates.
I don’t. I eat the yummy thing that came out of their vent.
Load More Replies... Wow, y'all really make sure to make people who genuinely want to help animals seem like the enemy. Male chicks are dropped into grinders, gassed or just thrown into the garbage alive because they don't lay eggs. This is standard practice in hatcheries - which is where pretty much all hens come from nowadays. If you don't hatch your own chickens and keep all of the males until their natural death, then you're still contributing to this problem (unless your chickens are rescues). Also, hens easily get deficient in calcium from having to produce so many egg shells, and they produce even more when those eggs are taken from them. Feeding them back their own eggs helps restore some of the nutrients. Of course keeping your own "backyard hens" is much, much better than buying eggs from the store, and most vegans would applaud you for giving your hens a good life, but please don't act like it doesn't do any damage.
Do you actually know what natural death is for a “male chicken” (which is a c**k)??? Let me share with you, since I have two chicken houses at my place and have raised chickens for most of my fifty-year life: c***s become aggressive as they come through their fourth molt to maturity. There is a pecking order in any flock, whether it’s c***s, hens or a mixture thereof. C***s fight for dominance. As they grow, their spurs grow, harden, and become as sharp as a stiletto blade. C***s fight each other from sun up to sun down, slice each other to ribbons, blind each other, and go after injured lessers until they fold in bleeding, gasping lumps of torn feathers, torn skin and mangled flesh. That’s *if* the raccoons, foxes and coyotes don’t take them out first. My Roos are raised until four to six months before they start fighting nasty, at which point they are humanely butchered, spatchcocked and frozen. And any producer who isn’t giving daily oystershell to their poultry isn’t getting any eggs anyway.
Load More Replies... I like this and I imagine, in time, there will be a sensible and moderate version of a good diet, that won't cause posturing or criticism.
I think beekeepers like this are the exception not the rule. I wish more would follow their lead.
The difference between vegans and meat eaters is a difference in degree, not a difference in kind. We eat things, all of which used to be alive, that are different enough from ourselves so that we don't feel uncomfortable. It's up to each individual to determine how different something needs to be in order to exploit it for nutrition (or any other reason -- pets, for example, are exploited for emotional reasons). By the way, domesticated animals exploit us for nutrition, too. It's obvious to me that veganism started simply as a way for some vegetarians to win arguments against other vegetarians.
Animals are not "things"and this argument is a logical fallacy. Plants have no nervous systems, cannot feel or express pain and do not run from being attacked - nor do they make heroic leaps over slaughter house fences in desperate attempts to save their lives - much as you would, were you in that situation.
Load More Replies... No, it’s not an “egg period.” But you keep on talking nonsense. Cholesterol is most definitely needed to survive. Every cell in your body is dependent on cholesterol for basic functioning. Without cholesterol, you cannot produce the hormones necessary for homeostasis; even more importantly, without cholesterol, you cannot convert precursors of vitamins - carotenoids, cobalamins, etc. - into the nutrients your body needs to be strong and healthy. The reason that vegans age so badly and have such poor skin quality is because they are deficient in cholesterol and collagen intake, which are the necessary building blocks for everything structural and vital to human life and health.
Load More Replies... The definition of the verb “exploit” means “to make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).” You exploit every day. The vegetables and herbs you choose to buy at the supermarket exploit the world’s arable land, the indigenous peoples who give up access because of your demands (quinoa from Peru, mangoes from the Congo, for example). The t-shirt you are wearing exploits thousands of gallons of water in the production of cotton used in making the knit fabric, but you will b***h at the same amount of water being used to produce a steer. You call other people dumbshits whilst engaging in your own mindless forms of exploitation whilst assuming that you alone are enlightened. I farm, I sequester carbon. I recycle and compost everything. I use no plastics, I conserve...and I still raise and eat meat. My ethics are sound and well-researched. My choice not to eat babies is in the sense that most cannibals eat other humans not for energy and nutrient density, but to take in the soul.
Load More Replies... You might be curious to know that there are hundreds of breeds of chickens - some lay very few eggs (fifty or so a year), some like Australorps have been known to hit over three hundred, which is a gigantic amount. You can still get jungle fowl, the original stock for the chicken, though the males are insanely aggressive - much more so than even a normal rooster, and I've seen normal roosters slaughter each other when they'd been adorable friends as chicks.
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