“People Shouldn’t Have To Work”: Person Shares How The World Would Work If Everyone Had Universal Basic Income
Universal basic income (UBI) is a governmental public program for a periodic payment delivered to all citizens of a given population without a means test or work requirement. If the level is sufficient to meet a person’s basic needs (i.e., at or above the poverty line) it is sometimes called a full basic income. If it is less than that amount, it may be called a partial basic income.
The general idea that the government should give every citizen money with no strings attached has been around since the 16th century. But lately, it has experienced a remarkable resurgence with advocates ranging from Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg to libertarian economist Milton Friedman.
Twitter user Lori Summers is also on that list. Lori published a comprehensive thread where they explained why they think UBI is a blessing, not a curse.
More info: Twitter
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
One of the reasons why talks about UBI resurfaced was a two-year study Finland ran in 2017 and 2018, during which the government gave 2,000 unemployed people (aged between 25 and 58) monthly payments without asking anything in return.
The payments of €560 per month were unconditional, so they weren’t reduced if an individual got a job or a pay rise. The study was nationwide and selected recipients weren’t able to opt-out because the test was written into legislation.
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
The study compared the employment and well-being of basic income recipients against a control group of 173,000 people who were on unemployment benefits. Between November 2017 and October 2018, people on basic income worked an average of 78 days while those on unemployment benefits worked six days less.
There was a greater increase in employment for people in families with children, as well as those whose first language wasn’t Finnish or Swedish. However, the researchers aren’t yet sure why.
When surveyed, people who received universal basic income instead of regular unemployment benefits reported better financial well-being, mental health, and cognitive functioning, as well as higher levels of confidence in the future.
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
But some experts believe the experiment didn’t go that well. In an article for Jacobin, Jimmy O’Donnell, a senior research assistant at The Brookings Institution, pointed out what he thought were a few major problems.
The first, he said, was a change in social attitude in Finland. Many politicians and their constituents began to view basic income as a way to encourage poor work ethic. This contributed to a second issue: the prime minister’s office was only willing to offer a budget of 20 million euros (roughly $24 million) for the trial.
Furthermore, it wanted the policy to be implemented quickly, forcing researchers to rush the experiment’s design. The researchers behind the trial had originally planned to include 10,000 participants and were considering payments of around 1,000 euros per month. But that wasn’t possible with the budget they got.
The sharp timeline also forced the team to limit the participants to unemployed residents, since they already had administrative data for that group.
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
Stynes also identified another flaw: the design of the trial dictated that basic income was only a part of the services given to the recipients, and they were required to forgo certain other benefits in order to receive the money.
In the end, the trial only involved people who were already receiving Finland’s standard conditional benefits — things like unemployment benefits, housing allowances, social assistance, and illness compensation that are afforded to unemployed residents by law.
A control group of unemployed people (around 5,000 residents) continued to receive these services. The treatment group, meanwhile, received a portion (but not all) of the same conditional benefits they had been getting before, in addition to small basic-income payments of 560 euros per month.
In 2017, that resulted in the control group receiving 7,300 euros ($8,000) in unemployment benefits and 1,300 euros ($1,400) in social assistance. The treatment group, meanwhile, only received 5,800 euros ($6,400) in unemployment benefits and 940 euros ($1,000) in social assistance that year.
What does all of this mean? Well, the data is difficult to parse out.
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: madlori
A Pew Research Center survey, conducted online in August 2020, of 11,000 U.S. adults found that a narrow majority (54%) oppose the federal government providing a guaranteed income of $1,000 per month to all adults, while 45% support it
Here’s what people said after reading Lori’s thread
Image credits: cabe_bedlam
Image credits: kitefosta
Image credits: BNGChrisWr
Image credits: Mike_V211
Image credits: athin5inches
Image credits: DougDodsonENews
Image credits: erikakmeyer
Image credits: larvitaro
Image credits: TheMostStacy
Image credits: KnightStooge77
Image credits: acxsasx
Image credits: theking4mayor
Image credits: Azelphuren
Image credits: SmartMugu
Image credits: Jingx1
Image credits: madlori
Image credits: PatrickGerard01
Image credits: philiprenich
Rejecting the idea of a citizen's dividend as a socialist dream is naive. In fact, many good argument for universal basic income schemes have been brought forward, and some experiments, such as in Finnland, have yielded noteworthy results. However, the reality is not as easy as proposed in a few tweets.
There lie great challenges with income inequality, particularly driven by the fact that interest on capital growths faster than salaries (which leads to greater inequality). Moreover, automation and artficial intelligence will make many jobs superfluous. You cannot simply say "Let's give every citizen sum X" but an transformation of the economic system, including taxation and social matters, would be needed.
Load More Replies...For anyone who might be interested: the book "Utopia for realists" by Rutger Bregman gives a wonderful overview on the matter of a universal basic income and the experiments done. I found it to be truly mind-boggling.
To be honest, we studied Utopia (the actual novel) in university, and the excerpt we used for our classes made me conclude that Utopia was a pretty repressive place itself...
Load More Replies...stupid conversation to even have. Money comes from creating value. It's like bartering, but more convenient. If you're not creating value, where is the money going to come from? So a few people have to work their butts off so you can stay home and be lazy? Give me a break.
You are missing one point here. The planet, our earth, is creating endless value to all living being every day. The rationale of a citizen's dividend is to let *everyone* partcipate in for example what is made from drilling for oil. Whether that works is disputed, but there is in a way value creation without doing a thing.
Load More Replies...So, if everyone is getting all the money they need to live and do fun stuff, who is going to do the really nasty jobs? Who is going to deliver your food? Service your car? Service the sewers? Work in a factory?
Robots. Now, who is going to build and maintain them? (I've seen the backstage, it's actually tough work.)
Load More Replies...Bottom line is you don't respect anything you get for free. Free encourages entitlement.
Yes! And as younger and younger generations have become more and more entitled, we have conversations like this where everyone gets something without having earned it. This whole thing is born from a wholly undeserved sense of entitlement. It is so blatantly clear and that no one sees that only underlines the “entitlement” stereotype that the Millennial generation finds so offensive.
Load More Replies...Sounds so warm and fuzzy on paper. In reality, it would be a complete failure and society would collapse.
We don't know what would happen. People want to feel useful. That's actually a huge reason depression is rampant among unemployed even in countries where the unemployed receive full benefits.
Load More Replies...If you mean your comment, you're right, it is.
Load More Replies...I know so many people who _want_ to look after the elderly and disabled, but can't afford to have those jobs because the pay is so low and the working conditions are awful. I know people who have small, ethically run farms who have to work full-time jobs during the day and then come home to do farm work. Fundamentally, people want to work and help eachother, they just don't want to be blackmailed into it by the threat of homelessness and starvation.
For all those assuming people will refuse to do the s**t jobs... I've got news for you. The feeling of helping and contributing to someone's life is enough for me to say I'll gladly do the dirty jobs, I'll learn something, keep active and make people's lives better.
Look at the number of people who don't retire, even though they can. Or who do volunteer work without pay. People want to contribute to society... only seriously cynical people think otherwise.
Load More Replies...I am all for a decent standard of living for all workers, but it is also important to remember money is not everything. You needs jobs that provide a safe and friendly atmosphere, were staff can contribute. Feeling a sense of worth is very important for human nature, it's how we have people willing to run into burning buildings.
My colleagues know me as a hard worker (I have a whole collection of employee awards to prove it) but, trust me, I wouldn't work a day in my life if I didn't have to. Yes, I would pursue my interests but work? No way!
I think you are misunderstanding the "don't have to work" part of UBI. With UBI, you don't have to work because you get a "basic" income from the government. Just enough to survive on, nothing more. If you received a payment from the government equivalent to pay for the cheapest possible studio apartment, plus food stamp worthy food... would you say "No need to work, time to peruse interests", or would you say "oh crap, I need a job. Sure I don't 'have' to work, but I want to work and live better than this"
Load More Replies...Imagine that the cashier who rang up your groceries is actually quite brilliant and, with UBI, is able to attain higher education and formulate a cure for cancers. Imagine the bartender who actually has time to write a symphony or a book. Imagine that each and every one of us has the opportunity to actually live up to our potential, because we aren't busy working a dead end job just to survive.
Imagine.....not living in America. In one of the many countries with a decent healthcare system, and benefits systems that catch those who are falling.
That's an inspiring, very democratic concept I've been wrapping my mind around a lot of times. It's impressive how it challenges people's views about work, money and the way society should work in general. We're so much thought-conditioned with the same-old frame of minds that we terribly lack imagination - which means in this case we lack freedom of thought. We can't even figure out that the way we live is not the only one possible, that it's very far from the best possible actually. With nowadays' technology and social infrastructures, UBI would be sustainable and maybe much easier and safer than what we have to go through now. The only thing that I still find concerning is WHO would have the control over it - I mean, taking away the UBI from someone who cannot earn a living by their own means would be like a death sentence, so it would become a frightening weapon of social and political control.
I'm no expert, but that sounds basically like what we have in Germany. If you loose your job you get unemployment benefit. At least for a time. It is not as much as you had before, but it's about 60%. After that, if you hadn't had any luck finding a new job, you get unemployment benefit II, which is less, but still money you can live on. And you can apply for a variety of other benefits. Money for housing and other stuff. Even if you have a job but a large family or not enough for housing in your area, you'll get benefits. Plus: there is also Kindergeld, which you get monthly for every child you are taking care of until they are 18 and sometimes even until they are 25 (depending on circumstances). Oh and you are always in the healthcare system, regardless. The town I was born in recently provided container housing for their few homeless (one of them lost his flat because he managed to burn it with his cigarette when he fell asleep and nobody wanted him to live in their property anymore
It is different because it is more efficient. EVERYBODY gets the UBI payment, including people who are working. So you don't need a bunch of bureaucrats keeping tack of who is unemployed, and for how long, and what salary to calculate. You just give everyone a monthly basic payment. And your work salary is on top of that.
Load More Replies...I think the primary headwinds that UBI will always encounter is that some portion of the human brain is hardwired against the concept, perhaps a cognitive bias related to problem framing. However, societies are going to find themselves backed into a corner if the current trajectories of predatory hyper-Capitalism and AI automation continue to eliminate opportunities to earn a living. Many people react negatively against “‘something for nothing” when framed in local tribal terms, but don’t seem nearly as bothered by it for monarchs and multi-millionaires. And when something for nothing is packaged in religious terms like “universal basic Grace” then that same concept gets a free pass and receives a very warm welcome indeed. Go figure.
I cannot upvote this enough. In US, we idolize the idle rich but villify the concept of idle poor. Utopia through religion is promoted ( love thy neighbor, help those less fortunate) yet utopia through economics is laughed at ( people are selfish ).
Load More Replies...Good plan. Lets hope millions and millions of people WANT to shovel s**t, change old peoples diapers, wander in the sewers, clean all day, etc. etc. etc. I mean people line up for those jobs right?
Learn what UBI is. It isn't communism, it isn't "work for free". You still get paid to do a job. Different jobs still get different salaries. People will line up for those jobs if the pay is good enough.
Load More Replies...The entire state of Alaska in the US has had a form of UBI since the mid 70’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund. Nobody complained.
thank you for that. had forgotten about that. what a lot of these folks don't take into account is that the world wasn't always this way. it was worse. then 'crazy' ideas came along and the world improved (over time). trapped bugs in a jar.
Load More Replies...I've been lucky enough to achieve a situation where I don't have to work to live. Without working, I can feed myself, have a safe warm and dry place I call home. I don't have to work to have a safe life. But when my computer die, I'll need to work to replace it. If I want to buy something nice that add comfort to my actual safe life, I have to find a job. I like working, from time to time. And I do it happily when I find an interesting opportunity; yes, those opportunites are usually minimal wage job; but I take them because I want to. And I'm free to go whenever I want if the job is insane... I'm aware that it's a really privilege situation I manage to build for myself. And I clearly wish for everyone to be able to live this feeling of freedom... so much less stress in life after that...
Is that even a privilege if you have to get a job any time you need to buy something? That sounds like you just grew really comfortable and accustomed to deep poverty. That sounds like the opposite of privilege. No person takes a minimum wage job because they want to. They do it because they need to. But yes, that actually is kind of how that UBI system would work. The stipend wouldn’t be enough to live lavishly but just enough to not have to be hungry or homeless or whatever. Anything else you’d still have to earn but at least the menial jobs would pay a fair wage. $7.50 is a crime.
Load More Replies...Work and strive - you get stuff. Sit on your butt and do nothing - you are entitled to nothing. Simple.
But if you are entitled to nothing, then you are entitled to the impossible because you're doing something. Not simple.
Load More Replies...1. Where does all the money to pay a basic income come from? The only place it can realistically come from is to tax those that do work at a higher rate. I dont mind paying taxes to provide a societal safety net, but i draw the line at earning less from my work so that someone else can avoid working entirely. 2. Some necessary jobs would be very difficult to fill. Do you really want to be a sewage worker when you dont need the money? Getting money is societies incentive for you to do things that otherwise you wouldnt do, thats why jobs pay and hobbies dont. 3. Everybody having more money would see prices of goods rise. The price of consumer goods is largely based on what people can afford. Ultimately those on just a universal income would be no better off
So 560 euros a month per citizen, multiplied by 5.5 million citizens in Finland, equals 3,080,000,000 per month, multiplied by 12 months equals almost 37 billion euros a year, which is more than the total amount of annual tax revenue collected by the government. This explains why the liberal left doesn't want schools to expect students to get correct answers on math tests or show their work.
WHAT IS UBI? -- People commenting here get it SO wrong, it is NOT communism, it is not "everyone gets paid the same". It is (basically) you get a monthly "income" from the government that covers the *basic* costs of living. So enough for rent, food and clothing. You can survive with this money, but that's it, just barely. If you want anything beyond that, then GET A JOB. If you want a car, if you want a computer, if you want to pay for netflix, if you want to eat out, if you want to travel, then go get a job. What a salary for a job is would actually be a "free market". There would be no minimum wage. Someone could offer $1.00 per hour if they wanted. The thing is, they would have to offer a salary that makes someone think "well that's better than sitting on my ass all day with nothing to do". Since nobody would be desperate for a job, salaries would be based on how much someone would want to do work.
That’s called unemployment benefit in many countries.
Load More Replies...The Protestant work ethic is one of the best examples of a theoretically legitimate philosophy being grossly misused. The whole "hard work builds character" thing is basically reasonable when one is working to improve one's self or otherwise achieve something noteworthy. But doing some menial job for someone who sees you as nothing more than a resource to exploit under threat of homelessness? That doesn't build character, it DESTROYS character.
I have a good Job. It pays well and I enjoy it most of the time but you better believe if I didn't have to work I wouldn't be. There are a million other things Id rather be doing than spending 40 hours a week at my job.
Does your job pay more than minimum wage? Sure, you wouldn't "have" to work, but would you be willing to switch to a lifestyle where you just barely have enough money to get by?
Load More Replies...To the commenter above who says she would be one of the people who would take advantage of it - she definitely would not. Because if society changed on that drastic of a level, our spoken and unspoken societal rules would change as well. You would see the benefit of it, the freedom in it and you would feel pressure from your social circles to behave in a certain way. Kinda the same reason the world isn't complete chaos now. (well, it is sorta ha ha but you know what I mean. Like most of us agree to basic societal rules)
Dear America, the answers to your problems don't have to be so utopic. You're trying to cure pains of capitalism with communism. It's been tried, many times. IT NEVER WORKED.
UBI isn't communism. It isn't even socialism. It can easily be run within a capitalist economy.
Load More Replies...If our civilization ever reach this point, there would be no need for currency. The people currently unable to grasp such a concept is because their entire measure of self-worth is based on money. But then they forget, money is actually a substitute for time and effort at its most basic. So ultimately the question is, will we as a race ever move past stealing time? The disparity in wealth now is essentially just that.
You can take the test here: https://www.idrlabs.com/socialism/test.php
Load More Replies...I like the idea of a livable wage for every human. I also believe people won't quit their jobs, because earning your own money does have a true value in self confidence. Perhaps people will work less, but that also means less toxic work environments. Yes, some people will quit their jobs, but those people will be bored (this pandemic shows how difficult it is for people to just be home all the time). Also, less immigration, since there's no longer a need to find wealth in order to provide for family. And yes, opinions may differ about this item.
I fail to see how there would be “less toxic work environments.” People are people are people. That will never change. As long as people are working with people, toxicity will exist.
Load More Replies...Well, there are countries that mandated that people didn't have to work to benefit from a socialist "paradise." No, they were told that they were "building a socialist paradise, not working" and those who didn't help to "build" the "paradise" were called saboteurs. So yes, no one had to "work" they only had to "help build a socialist paradise."
That's not how it worked. "Building the socialist paradise" was what people were supposed to do to get and income from the state, but it never implied the promise of free individual time. Hard collective work was celebrated and sacralized in socialist countries, even more that in capitalist ones. Both ideologies are based on productivism and endless exploitation of human and natural resources, which is precisely what we have to break away from, and why both ideologies have become obsolete now. It's time we invented another way of living.
Load More Replies...IMO: This is American libertarianism in disguise. "Everyone has the freedom to do whatever in (fill-in-blank) way." And? It always fails. Why? Human nature. For those not in the US, we know "libertarian" means otherwise to you in many cases, but in the US it's "I do what I want when I want if I want wah wah wah! *foot stomp*" a la Ayn Rand (who hated socialism but took Social Security, nuff said). Rant over. Peace to all.
Don’t get too excited about the Poverty Pals in here spreading their weird conservative lies. These people have had a lifetime of lies told to them so they repeat it. Their economic anxiety drives them to want anyone poorer than them to stay poor. Let’s be real. Everyone knows about the gigantic government welfare programs in countries like UAE that literally lifted 90% of their citizens out of poverty with that sweet, sexy, delicious oil money. If it weren’t for their backwards religion, they’d be living it up like it’s 3099. Conservatives just want people to be poorer than them and that’s it. It’s not deeper than that. Trust, if they had money of their own, they wouldn’t be thinking about who wouldn’t work. You know what people with money want? More money. Struggling conservatives would not understand.
You know nothing about UAE. There are dirt poor people living there servicing the citizens. Indentured servitude and slavery abound there. Who do you think does all the menial labor? Noncitizens!
Load More Replies...Living in a country where people who do not want to work get a minimum income for free, I really do not see a problem. After all, those who do work have more money to spend and live happier lives because they don't have to worry how to make ends meet. Every advantage has also disadvantages and if you're satisfied to live a life in poverty because you chose you didn't want to work, that should be an option. Let's not forget that in the near future there won't be enough jobs for everyone so Universal Basic Income will have to be introduced at some point. Whether you like it or not.
Sadly there are far too many people who will happily sacrifice millions so that thousands don't get to sit on their bottoms playing Xbox...
Load More Replies...One study found no difference in a control group and a UBI group for workforce participation (but a lot of mental and physical benefits to the UBI group). This is often misunderstood - people were not lazy and decided to stop working, they were equally as likely to work. The teacher shortage is all over the news... I would definitely be teaching if I lived in that UBI world, but I couldn't handle the low pay and disrespect, so I left. I would not be content doing nothing and having only the bare minimum to survive, so I imagine our workforce participation wouldn't change much, as the research suggests.
Pandemic prooved that this theory won't work. In our country every person who was forced to leave work because of a pandemic, gets a fixed amount of money every month. Now companies are unable to get those workers back because why go to work if i can get slightly less money but have all the time in the world to fulfill my aspirations? Pay more money! you would say and companies try doing just that. However there are ladders of positions, i.e. low skill job, i.e. janitor, refuses to come back to work. Employer raises salary to a point where it almost matches accountant salary. Now accountant is displeased as a job with high responsibility is paid same as the one that can be replaced with a robot! Noe the accountant get a raise, then managers, then leader, and the others up the chain. Obviously customers have to fund this wheel of hell. They have their fixed income so there's ways: either they refuse buying from the company or demand a raise in their jobs. Inflation skyrockets!
That is the real situation in 2021 Lithuania
Load More Replies...Legit question- who would do the jobs no one particularly wants to do but has to do in order to survive in non UBI world? I mean, some people going into plumbing, portable latrine cleaners or trash collecting because the money is good (or to ride on the trucks🤣) but if we all made the same wage, what would be the incentive to do those jobs?
So, basically socialism... Or what Karl Marx envisioned. In theory it is really nice, by practice, see socialist countries. But I am very confused about something, why do so many americans have to work 3 jobs just to make ends meat? I live in Romania, I am a single mom with my ex not contributing. I live with my mom and dad. I work 40 hours a week, my dad works 40 hours a week and has a pension, my mom is a housewife. My paycheck is on the lower end of „middle class” but we never have to think how are we going to pay the bills, what will we eat tomorrow... (there was a time, in the 90s when we were there, but I am guessing the USA is not at where a post communist Romania was 30 years ago).
"Should" and "Imagine" Those are important words. It would be great if... Yeah, it would be great if people weren't like this. But they are and they always will be. It has nothing to do with one group of people or another. It's all people. We're not going to achieve this perfect society. Wherever it looks like this might be happening, it's not. There are hidden groups of people supporting those that "don't have" to work.
If I could, I would 100% quit my job BUT (i of course can't because i would have no healthcare and lose my house) I would go back and finish my Masters, and then return to working in my current field (helping people), or follow my dreams and go into environmental science. But I don't if other people would. It is frustrating to people like me, driven to be educated and productive, but aren't able to reach our potential due to the cost of education and health care availability, etc.
That sounds like fun. I could be a lazy bum who doesn't contribute to, well, anything and I could still make money. Amazing! Communism for the win! -_-
have you read "brave new world"? an unfortunate phrase to use to support your contention. the idea of ideas is to use your mind. it's a hell of an idea. brazil handed out o% microloans. with great effect. cities in the US experimented w/getting homeless homes. discovered very encouraging results. even read up on a hotel (run by some social agency) that housed alcoholics and provided them with alcohol (w/some guidelines). almost all drank less, many sought and maintained cerbriatity. significant % returned to work and normal life. also, in america, an independent group in memphis, tn ran a coffee shop specifically to draw the homeless in. the city now completely funds the program as it saves them 2/3rds of the money they spent previously on dealing w/the homeless. the congress made a small change to disabilities laws, allowed dependents to work a # of hours w/o them risking their benefits. even the republicans are happy with it. no. she isn't stupid. it makes tremondous sense. 2bad4U.
This study was conducted in a largely homogenous state, Finland, where nearly everyone is Finnish and feel a sense of responsibility to their countrymen. Do this in the United Sstes full every nationality, race, creed, and color and it would be a disaster. Research the Nordic Economic Model and you’ll see why things that take place in Finland, Norway, and Sweden and work great will never work in the US.
Communism in theory is stupid as well lol. Taking a turd like communism and polishing it up and calling it Universal Basic Income is twice as stupid.
If you're pooping political ideals then you should see a doctor.
Load More Replies...But we do have that in many of the European countries. We do have our basics covered by the government such as rent food electricity etc.If we quit or lose our jobs. So we don't have to live in a constant fear of losing our jobs or taking shot from our employers. We do have laws to protect workers and the way it is done in America would never pass here.And yes, we still have most of our citizens working.even the "shittiest jobs " and yes there are still some who takes advantage of this but still our countries are wealthy, working and doing actually fine. And our education is free to certain point and even after that we don't have to be in dept. So basically we do have that what you described it is called basic income support,you do know that right?
In our free market the worker is free to go wherever they want and get a better job a different job
For those asking where the money comes from at least one plan was relatively sound, taxing businesses that choose to heavily automate, every mcdonalds that replaces cashiers with kiosks, every walmart that replaces stockers with robots and cashiers with self check outs gets taxed higher based on the number of machines they've chosen to replace jobs with. These businesses have already proven they aren't going to do anything decent and are already ensuring their employees Have to use government programs just for Basic survival, since they're doing it anyways why not make them responsible for the problems they're creating anyways. They want lower taxes they have to supply more jobs, they want to not pay employees and create a higher unemployment rate they can cover the cost of it existing.
The people that think that most would stop working and live from the government are like my MIL. She got angry when my parrner told her that I am applying for help for my disabilities and said that "I need to focus on getting better" (my diseases are chronic and will just get worse). Does she really think that I orefer to be locked at home earning 300-500 euros a month instead of having a job, feeling useful, having colleagues and earning at minimum 1500 euros that is the minimum wage here? F**k her.
How about Universal Basic Food? Not even going so far as the rest of the essentials, just food.
But we do have that in many of the European countries. We do have our basics covered by the government such as rent food electricity etc.If we quit or lose our jobs. So we don't have to live in a constant fear of losing our jobs or taking shot from our employers. We do have laws to protect workers and the way it is done in America would never pass here.And yes, we still have most of our citizens working.even the "shittiest jobs " and yes there are still some who takes advantage of this but still our countries are wealthy, working and doing actually fine. And our education is free to certain point and even after that we don't have to be in dept. So basically we do have that what you described it is called basic income support,you do know that right?
Load More Replies...I think it could work if everyone made minimum wage and you still get paid if you have a job, so the incentive to work is to live a nicer lifestyle, be able to travel etc. Not many able bodied people would sit on their butt forever if they were just getting enough money for rent, food and healthcare. So if you want any luxuries in life you work for them but at the same time you don't have to stay at a toxic job environment because if you quit you still have the basics and you can look for another job to provide the luxuries.
I think slot of the " people won't work" comes from the fact that in the US people are burnt out. There is no vacation/ sick , so many would love to just rest. It the money/ time theory. They want time off. But after about a year of this, many would be " whew, thanks for the break, really want that new xbox/ mountain bike , let me go get a job that pays"
Load More Replies...If we had a higher minimum wage we would not need free money. Tell me you dont know many people who would never work.
Wow what an ignorant bitch. Not ALL CONSERVATIVES hold that opinion I suffered so everyone else should..Thats a broad statement on HUGE number of people. This kinda s**t just scares me anyways because feels like part of AGENDA to ruin America and economy to become communist because everyone seems to think free stuff from government is great! Until it actually happens..
When you are handed everything do you gain any understanding of the value in things? Plus, you can't convince me that people will still do the nasty jobs, the labor-intensive jobs, the jobs that nobody even wants to do today while getting paid to do them. What if everyone decided that they didn't want to work a particular job even though it was desperately needed? Nobody doing it. Period. Then what?
I like the graduated welfare scheme, first proposed by someone working for Reagan. They said, let's come up with the basic amount someone has to live on. And if the don't make that amount, we supplement. So day it is 25000. Of you make 10, 000 , you get 15000. If you make 20,000, you get 5000. The problem with welfare ( as currently set up ) , it's an all or nothing kind of thing. This would also help eliminate the administrational overhead , which eats up a large chunk of the budget.
I had read through these comments and I am at least happy to see that there are people who see how fundamentally dumb this post is. People are selfish. Can some put that aside for a time? Absolutely. But the fundamentals don’t change and because of that, this would never work. Studies are exactly that: short term studies; and because of that are not a reliable source of information for this. People are capable of great and amazingly selfless things, but not on a constant and long lasting basis.
People being selfish ruin every economic model, including the one we currently use. The only difference is who benefits from the selfishness. For you to use this argument is total BS. It would only be a rational argument if you explained how selfish people in a UBI model are more detrimental than selfish people in the current model.
Load More Replies...It's a nice fairy tale but the only places UBI is offered in large scale are IRAN and Mongolia. A few other countries are trying small scale (a few hundred people) UBI programs, that amount to little more then welfare.
I was not a fan of UBI and still in the fence - but Andrew Yang's appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast - listen all the way through- had a profound impact on my thinking on this topic,especially relative to all of the human-based jobs (yes, trash collection. Also brain surgery) that is or will soon be done efficiently by AI and robots.
Where does this money come from? How do you keep the government out of crippling debt? How does the economy stay afloat?
Okay since this is striking a nerve for a lot of people; Google the Venus project for an even better idea than a UBI
I suspect the downvote comes from someone who has extrapolated from the Venus Project to ZOMG ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!! OH NOES!!
Load More Replies...I don't think that would work. Where would the money came from? Can we really pay it from taxes?
This idea was trialed in Finland. Failed and was scrapped early. Hardly anyone was incentivised
Yes and no. Like so many things it was never a black-and-white issue. In the first place it wasn't actually Universal, it was carried out among a control group, secondly it was rushed into place without proper procedures in place and thirdly it was partly sabotaged by political shenanigans. There are of course other nuances and going at it half-arsed didn't help.
Load More Replies...Luckily they will be soon - as in; within our lifetime
Load More Replies...Also imagine a world where there is no poverty, no crime, no violence, no disease, no death, everyone has all the food and water and drinks and candy they want. Everyone gets free videogames, free streaming, free internet, free all the resources you could possibly want, everyone gets a perfect partner and everyone is happy all the time. What? I said IMAGINE it. It's a dream. it's never gonna happen because it's impossible.
Just like your sex life !BUUURRRNNNN! LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Load More Replies...This is a Marxist idea. The workers are oppressed and need to take the control of the world and that will create the utopia. Yeah look at the country's that have tried extrem socialism or communism it dose not work that well. People would not get proper educations because they can live without striving for a good job. You would stop many great inventions or creativity because the need and desperation is driving that forward. And no hard/bad jobs would get done properly. It would also create big inflation on the economy because you add an that money to the system.
It would be enough if the employment market was a market of equals. But, as you see everywhere, the rich either control the legislation, or benefit from not having any - and spend a lot to spread the ideas that this is the only way it works. While we know exactly nothing more than that this society and economy will survive the soviet-communism, which in itself is already a misconception of what Marx' books said and maybe shouldn't even carry that name. We only know capitalism collapses slower than that - nothing more adds to the notion this was the closest to any utopias we can get. So, why not try out UBI? Don't see why it would be worse.
Since all of the money for UBI would come from taxes: 1) how sustainable would this system be, without raising taxes to fund it or taking away govt funding to other services/purposes (especially since no sector ever feels it has enough funding), and 2) instead of taxing people and then giving back whatever UBI amount is deemed appropriate, why not just tax people less and people get to keep more of the money they earn? It would amount to the same thing but would cut out the time that people go without their own earnings from monthly tax deductions - instead of a (potential) partial refund once a year, each person keeps more of their earnings every month.
Lazy people are pushing this. Instead lets organize for 15.00 as my kids are doing ok but i wish yours that are working could do good also
Nope, 15.00 is too much for your lazy kids. Make them work for less like you did, you cuck.
Load More Replies...Wait so does everyone in every position earn the same? Why even go to college then? Why would someone go through the long grueling process of studying medicine if there’s no financial payoff? Who would clean toilets when you can just sit at home eating Cheetos? This is a terrible idea to be honest, like where does everyone’s income come from? Taxes? If everyone’s taxed enough to make this possible, how does anyone have money left?
Maybe people become a doctor because they want to and they have the brain to do so because their parents actually have time to read to them when they are small children.
Load More Replies...All of Europe called. They were gonna clown you but they figured with your American education it’d be kinda unethical.
Load More Replies...So.........WHERE is all of this supposed gov't money to come from to pay all these millions and millions of people a UI?? You think the corrupt politicians are going to take CUTS in their pay??? You think the corrupt politicians are going to stop voting themselves high percentage raises and perks every year? WORKING people pay taxes, and these taxes are what pays these lazy jackasses to sit on their fat rumps all day whining and complaining about not having money, instead of getting off their damned easy chairs and looking for work!! WHY pay people to sit on their ass? WHY take money from the working class? WHY don't you FORCE all the millions and millions of lazy f*cks in this country to WORK and PAY TAXES for a few years and give the actual working person a break for once!!
So should we force all those who inherited millions and don't work to get a job ? Because they are lazy ? They pay less taxes percentage wise, do they should have to work and pay.
Load More Replies...Then society will stay pretty much where it’s at right now, which is corrupt and collapsing.
Load More Replies...So what? Why wouldn’t you spend some of your own money on weed or whatever? That’s literally what money is for. Don’t you have a 4chan meeting or something?
Load More Replies...Rejecting the idea of a citizen's dividend as a socialist dream is naive. In fact, many good argument for universal basic income schemes have been brought forward, and some experiments, such as in Finnland, have yielded noteworthy results. However, the reality is not as easy as proposed in a few tweets.
There lie great challenges with income inequality, particularly driven by the fact that interest on capital growths faster than salaries (which leads to greater inequality). Moreover, automation and artficial intelligence will make many jobs superfluous. You cannot simply say "Let's give every citizen sum X" but an transformation of the economic system, including taxation and social matters, would be needed.
Load More Replies...For anyone who might be interested: the book "Utopia for realists" by Rutger Bregman gives a wonderful overview on the matter of a universal basic income and the experiments done. I found it to be truly mind-boggling.
To be honest, we studied Utopia (the actual novel) in university, and the excerpt we used for our classes made me conclude that Utopia was a pretty repressive place itself...
Load More Replies...stupid conversation to even have. Money comes from creating value. It's like bartering, but more convenient. If you're not creating value, where is the money going to come from? So a few people have to work their butts off so you can stay home and be lazy? Give me a break.
You are missing one point here. The planet, our earth, is creating endless value to all living being every day. The rationale of a citizen's dividend is to let *everyone* partcipate in for example what is made from drilling for oil. Whether that works is disputed, but there is in a way value creation without doing a thing.
Load More Replies...So, if everyone is getting all the money they need to live and do fun stuff, who is going to do the really nasty jobs? Who is going to deliver your food? Service your car? Service the sewers? Work in a factory?
Robots. Now, who is going to build and maintain them? (I've seen the backstage, it's actually tough work.)
Load More Replies...Bottom line is you don't respect anything you get for free. Free encourages entitlement.
Yes! And as younger and younger generations have become more and more entitled, we have conversations like this where everyone gets something without having earned it. This whole thing is born from a wholly undeserved sense of entitlement. It is so blatantly clear and that no one sees that only underlines the “entitlement” stereotype that the Millennial generation finds so offensive.
Load More Replies...Sounds so warm and fuzzy on paper. In reality, it would be a complete failure and society would collapse.
We don't know what would happen. People want to feel useful. That's actually a huge reason depression is rampant among unemployed even in countries where the unemployed receive full benefits.
Load More Replies...If you mean your comment, you're right, it is.
Load More Replies...I know so many people who _want_ to look after the elderly and disabled, but can't afford to have those jobs because the pay is so low and the working conditions are awful. I know people who have small, ethically run farms who have to work full-time jobs during the day and then come home to do farm work. Fundamentally, people want to work and help eachother, they just don't want to be blackmailed into it by the threat of homelessness and starvation.
For all those assuming people will refuse to do the s**t jobs... I've got news for you. The feeling of helping and contributing to someone's life is enough for me to say I'll gladly do the dirty jobs, I'll learn something, keep active and make people's lives better.
Look at the number of people who don't retire, even though they can. Or who do volunteer work without pay. People want to contribute to society... only seriously cynical people think otherwise.
Load More Replies...I am all for a decent standard of living for all workers, but it is also important to remember money is not everything. You needs jobs that provide a safe and friendly atmosphere, were staff can contribute. Feeling a sense of worth is very important for human nature, it's how we have people willing to run into burning buildings.
My colleagues know me as a hard worker (I have a whole collection of employee awards to prove it) but, trust me, I wouldn't work a day in my life if I didn't have to. Yes, I would pursue my interests but work? No way!
I think you are misunderstanding the "don't have to work" part of UBI. With UBI, you don't have to work because you get a "basic" income from the government. Just enough to survive on, nothing more. If you received a payment from the government equivalent to pay for the cheapest possible studio apartment, plus food stamp worthy food... would you say "No need to work, time to peruse interests", or would you say "oh crap, I need a job. Sure I don't 'have' to work, but I want to work and live better than this"
Load More Replies...Imagine that the cashier who rang up your groceries is actually quite brilliant and, with UBI, is able to attain higher education and formulate a cure for cancers. Imagine the bartender who actually has time to write a symphony or a book. Imagine that each and every one of us has the opportunity to actually live up to our potential, because we aren't busy working a dead end job just to survive.
Imagine.....not living in America. In one of the many countries with a decent healthcare system, and benefits systems that catch those who are falling.
That's an inspiring, very democratic concept I've been wrapping my mind around a lot of times. It's impressive how it challenges people's views about work, money and the way society should work in general. We're so much thought-conditioned with the same-old frame of minds that we terribly lack imagination - which means in this case we lack freedom of thought. We can't even figure out that the way we live is not the only one possible, that it's very far from the best possible actually. With nowadays' technology and social infrastructures, UBI would be sustainable and maybe much easier and safer than what we have to go through now. The only thing that I still find concerning is WHO would have the control over it - I mean, taking away the UBI from someone who cannot earn a living by their own means would be like a death sentence, so it would become a frightening weapon of social and political control.
I'm no expert, but that sounds basically like what we have in Germany. If you loose your job you get unemployment benefit. At least for a time. It is not as much as you had before, but it's about 60%. After that, if you hadn't had any luck finding a new job, you get unemployment benefit II, which is less, but still money you can live on. And you can apply for a variety of other benefits. Money for housing and other stuff. Even if you have a job but a large family or not enough for housing in your area, you'll get benefits. Plus: there is also Kindergeld, which you get monthly for every child you are taking care of until they are 18 and sometimes even until they are 25 (depending on circumstances). Oh and you are always in the healthcare system, regardless. The town I was born in recently provided container housing for their few homeless (one of them lost his flat because he managed to burn it with his cigarette when he fell asleep and nobody wanted him to live in their property anymore
It is different because it is more efficient. EVERYBODY gets the UBI payment, including people who are working. So you don't need a bunch of bureaucrats keeping tack of who is unemployed, and for how long, and what salary to calculate. You just give everyone a monthly basic payment. And your work salary is on top of that.
Load More Replies...I think the primary headwinds that UBI will always encounter is that some portion of the human brain is hardwired against the concept, perhaps a cognitive bias related to problem framing. However, societies are going to find themselves backed into a corner if the current trajectories of predatory hyper-Capitalism and AI automation continue to eliminate opportunities to earn a living. Many people react negatively against “‘something for nothing” when framed in local tribal terms, but don’t seem nearly as bothered by it for monarchs and multi-millionaires. And when something for nothing is packaged in religious terms like “universal basic Grace” then that same concept gets a free pass and receives a very warm welcome indeed. Go figure.
I cannot upvote this enough. In US, we idolize the idle rich but villify the concept of idle poor. Utopia through religion is promoted ( love thy neighbor, help those less fortunate) yet utopia through economics is laughed at ( people are selfish ).
Load More Replies...Good plan. Lets hope millions and millions of people WANT to shovel s**t, change old peoples diapers, wander in the sewers, clean all day, etc. etc. etc. I mean people line up for those jobs right?
Learn what UBI is. It isn't communism, it isn't "work for free". You still get paid to do a job. Different jobs still get different salaries. People will line up for those jobs if the pay is good enough.
Load More Replies...The entire state of Alaska in the US has had a form of UBI since the mid 70’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund. Nobody complained.
thank you for that. had forgotten about that. what a lot of these folks don't take into account is that the world wasn't always this way. it was worse. then 'crazy' ideas came along and the world improved (over time). trapped bugs in a jar.
Load More Replies...I've been lucky enough to achieve a situation where I don't have to work to live. Without working, I can feed myself, have a safe warm and dry place I call home. I don't have to work to have a safe life. But when my computer die, I'll need to work to replace it. If I want to buy something nice that add comfort to my actual safe life, I have to find a job. I like working, from time to time. And I do it happily when I find an interesting opportunity; yes, those opportunites are usually minimal wage job; but I take them because I want to. And I'm free to go whenever I want if the job is insane... I'm aware that it's a really privilege situation I manage to build for myself. And I clearly wish for everyone to be able to live this feeling of freedom... so much less stress in life after that...
Is that even a privilege if you have to get a job any time you need to buy something? That sounds like you just grew really comfortable and accustomed to deep poverty. That sounds like the opposite of privilege. No person takes a minimum wage job because they want to. They do it because they need to. But yes, that actually is kind of how that UBI system would work. The stipend wouldn’t be enough to live lavishly but just enough to not have to be hungry or homeless or whatever. Anything else you’d still have to earn but at least the menial jobs would pay a fair wage. $7.50 is a crime.
Load More Replies...Work and strive - you get stuff. Sit on your butt and do nothing - you are entitled to nothing. Simple.
But if you are entitled to nothing, then you are entitled to the impossible because you're doing something. Not simple.
Load More Replies...1. Where does all the money to pay a basic income come from? The only place it can realistically come from is to tax those that do work at a higher rate. I dont mind paying taxes to provide a societal safety net, but i draw the line at earning less from my work so that someone else can avoid working entirely. 2. Some necessary jobs would be very difficult to fill. Do you really want to be a sewage worker when you dont need the money? Getting money is societies incentive for you to do things that otherwise you wouldnt do, thats why jobs pay and hobbies dont. 3. Everybody having more money would see prices of goods rise. The price of consumer goods is largely based on what people can afford. Ultimately those on just a universal income would be no better off
So 560 euros a month per citizen, multiplied by 5.5 million citizens in Finland, equals 3,080,000,000 per month, multiplied by 12 months equals almost 37 billion euros a year, which is more than the total amount of annual tax revenue collected by the government. This explains why the liberal left doesn't want schools to expect students to get correct answers on math tests or show their work.
WHAT IS UBI? -- People commenting here get it SO wrong, it is NOT communism, it is not "everyone gets paid the same". It is (basically) you get a monthly "income" from the government that covers the *basic* costs of living. So enough for rent, food and clothing. You can survive with this money, but that's it, just barely. If you want anything beyond that, then GET A JOB. If you want a car, if you want a computer, if you want to pay for netflix, if you want to eat out, if you want to travel, then go get a job. What a salary for a job is would actually be a "free market". There would be no minimum wage. Someone could offer $1.00 per hour if they wanted. The thing is, they would have to offer a salary that makes someone think "well that's better than sitting on my ass all day with nothing to do". Since nobody would be desperate for a job, salaries would be based on how much someone would want to do work.
That’s called unemployment benefit in many countries.
Load More Replies...The Protestant work ethic is one of the best examples of a theoretically legitimate philosophy being grossly misused. The whole "hard work builds character" thing is basically reasonable when one is working to improve one's self or otherwise achieve something noteworthy. But doing some menial job for someone who sees you as nothing more than a resource to exploit under threat of homelessness? That doesn't build character, it DESTROYS character.
I have a good Job. It pays well and I enjoy it most of the time but you better believe if I didn't have to work I wouldn't be. There are a million other things Id rather be doing than spending 40 hours a week at my job.
Does your job pay more than minimum wage? Sure, you wouldn't "have" to work, but would you be willing to switch to a lifestyle where you just barely have enough money to get by?
Load More Replies...To the commenter above who says she would be one of the people who would take advantage of it - she definitely would not. Because if society changed on that drastic of a level, our spoken and unspoken societal rules would change as well. You would see the benefit of it, the freedom in it and you would feel pressure from your social circles to behave in a certain way. Kinda the same reason the world isn't complete chaos now. (well, it is sorta ha ha but you know what I mean. Like most of us agree to basic societal rules)
Dear America, the answers to your problems don't have to be so utopic. You're trying to cure pains of capitalism with communism. It's been tried, many times. IT NEVER WORKED.
UBI isn't communism. It isn't even socialism. It can easily be run within a capitalist economy.
Load More Replies...If our civilization ever reach this point, there would be no need for currency. The people currently unable to grasp such a concept is because their entire measure of self-worth is based on money. But then they forget, money is actually a substitute for time and effort at its most basic. So ultimately the question is, will we as a race ever move past stealing time? The disparity in wealth now is essentially just that.
You can take the test here: https://www.idrlabs.com/socialism/test.php
Load More Replies...I like the idea of a livable wage for every human. I also believe people won't quit their jobs, because earning your own money does have a true value in self confidence. Perhaps people will work less, but that also means less toxic work environments. Yes, some people will quit their jobs, but those people will be bored (this pandemic shows how difficult it is for people to just be home all the time). Also, less immigration, since there's no longer a need to find wealth in order to provide for family. And yes, opinions may differ about this item.
I fail to see how there would be “less toxic work environments.” People are people are people. That will never change. As long as people are working with people, toxicity will exist.
Load More Replies...Well, there are countries that mandated that people didn't have to work to benefit from a socialist "paradise." No, they were told that they were "building a socialist paradise, not working" and those who didn't help to "build" the "paradise" were called saboteurs. So yes, no one had to "work" they only had to "help build a socialist paradise."
That's not how it worked. "Building the socialist paradise" was what people were supposed to do to get and income from the state, but it never implied the promise of free individual time. Hard collective work was celebrated and sacralized in socialist countries, even more that in capitalist ones. Both ideologies are based on productivism and endless exploitation of human and natural resources, which is precisely what we have to break away from, and why both ideologies have become obsolete now. It's time we invented another way of living.
Load More Replies...IMO: This is American libertarianism in disguise. "Everyone has the freedom to do whatever in (fill-in-blank) way." And? It always fails. Why? Human nature. For those not in the US, we know "libertarian" means otherwise to you in many cases, but in the US it's "I do what I want when I want if I want wah wah wah! *foot stomp*" a la Ayn Rand (who hated socialism but took Social Security, nuff said). Rant over. Peace to all.
Don’t get too excited about the Poverty Pals in here spreading their weird conservative lies. These people have had a lifetime of lies told to them so they repeat it. Their economic anxiety drives them to want anyone poorer than them to stay poor. Let’s be real. Everyone knows about the gigantic government welfare programs in countries like UAE that literally lifted 90% of their citizens out of poverty with that sweet, sexy, delicious oil money. If it weren’t for their backwards religion, they’d be living it up like it’s 3099. Conservatives just want people to be poorer than them and that’s it. It’s not deeper than that. Trust, if they had money of their own, they wouldn’t be thinking about who wouldn’t work. You know what people with money want? More money. Struggling conservatives would not understand.
You know nothing about UAE. There are dirt poor people living there servicing the citizens. Indentured servitude and slavery abound there. Who do you think does all the menial labor? Noncitizens!
Load More Replies...Living in a country where people who do not want to work get a minimum income for free, I really do not see a problem. After all, those who do work have more money to spend and live happier lives because they don't have to worry how to make ends meet. Every advantage has also disadvantages and if you're satisfied to live a life in poverty because you chose you didn't want to work, that should be an option. Let's not forget that in the near future there won't be enough jobs for everyone so Universal Basic Income will have to be introduced at some point. Whether you like it or not.
Sadly there are far too many people who will happily sacrifice millions so that thousands don't get to sit on their bottoms playing Xbox...
Load More Replies...One study found no difference in a control group and a UBI group for workforce participation (but a lot of mental and physical benefits to the UBI group). This is often misunderstood - people were not lazy and decided to stop working, they were equally as likely to work. The teacher shortage is all over the news... I would definitely be teaching if I lived in that UBI world, but I couldn't handle the low pay and disrespect, so I left. I would not be content doing nothing and having only the bare minimum to survive, so I imagine our workforce participation wouldn't change much, as the research suggests.
Pandemic prooved that this theory won't work. In our country every person who was forced to leave work because of a pandemic, gets a fixed amount of money every month. Now companies are unable to get those workers back because why go to work if i can get slightly less money but have all the time in the world to fulfill my aspirations? Pay more money! you would say and companies try doing just that. However there are ladders of positions, i.e. low skill job, i.e. janitor, refuses to come back to work. Employer raises salary to a point where it almost matches accountant salary. Now accountant is displeased as a job with high responsibility is paid same as the one that can be replaced with a robot! Noe the accountant get a raise, then managers, then leader, and the others up the chain. Obviously customers have to fund this wheel of hell. They have their fixed income so there's ways: either they refuse buying from the company or demand a raise in their jobs. Inflation skyrockets!
That is the real situation in 2021 Lithuania
Load More Replies...Legit question- who would do the jobs no one particularly wants to do but has to do in order to survive in non UBI world? I mean, some people going into plumbing, portable latrine cleaners or trash collecting because the money is good (or to ride on the trucks🤣) but if we all made the same wage, what would be the incentive to do those jobs?
So, basically socialism... Or what Karl Marx envisioned. In theory it is really nice, by practice, see socialist countries. But I am very confused about something, why do so many americans have to work 3 jobs just to make ends meat? I live in Romania, I am a single mom with my ex not contributing. I live with my mom and dad. I work 40 hours a week, my dad works 40 hours a week and has a pension, my mom is a housewife. My paycheck is on the lower end of „middle class” but we never have to think how are we going to pay the bills, what will we eat tomorrow... (there was a time, in the 90s when we were there, but I am guessing the USA is not at where a post communist Romania was 30 years ago).
"Should" and "Imagine" Those are important words. It would be great if... Yeah, it would be great if people weren't like this. But they are and they always will be. It has nothing to do with one group of people or another. It's all people. We're not going to achieve this perfect society. Wherever it looks like this might be happening, it's not. There are hidden groups of people supporting those that "don't have" to work.
If I could, I would 100% quit my job BUT (i of course can't because i would have no healthcare and lose my house) I would go back and finish my Masters, and then return to working in my current field (helping people), or follow my dreams and go into environmental science. But I don't if other people would. It is frustrating to people like me, driven to be educated and productive, but aren't able to reach our potential due to the cost of education and health care availability, etc.
That sounds like fun. I could be a lazy bum who doesn't contribute to, well, anything and I could still make money. Amazing! Communism for the win! -_-
have you read "brave new world"? an unfortunate phrase to use to support your contention. the idea of ideas is to use your mind. it's a hell of an idea. brazil handed out o% microloans. with great effect. cities in the US experimented w/getting homeless homes. discovered very encouraging results. even read up on a hotel (run by some social agency) that housed alcoholics and provided them with alcohol (w/some guidelines). almost all drank less, many sought and maintained cerbriatity. significant % returned to work and normal life. also, in america, an independent group in memphis, tn ran a coffee shop specifically to draw the homeless in. the city now completely funds the program as it saves them 2/3rds of the money they spent previously on dealing w/the homeless. the congress made a small change to disabilities laws, allowed dependents to work a # of hours w/o them risking their benefits. even the republicans are happy with it. no. she isn't stupid. it makes tremondous sense. 2bad4U.
This study was conducted in a largely homogenous state, Finland, where nearly everyone is Finnish and feel a sense of responsibility to their countrymen. Do this in the United Sstes full every nationality, race, creed, and color and it would be a disaster. Research the Nordic Economic Model and you’ll see why things that take place in Finland, Norway, and Sweden and work great will never work in the US.
Communism in theory is stupid as well lol. Taking a turd like communism and polishing it up and calling it Universal Basic Income is twice as stupid.
If you're pooping political ideals then you should see a doctor.
Load More Replies...But we do have that in many of the European countries. We do have our basics covered by the government such as rent food electricity etc.If we quit or lose our jobs. So we don't have to live in a constant fear of losing our jobs or taking shot from our employers. We do have laws to protect workers and the way it is done in America would never pass here.And yes, we still have most of our citizens working.even the "shittiest jobs " and yes there are still some who takes advantage of this but still our countries are wealthy, working and doing actually fine. And our education is free to certain point and even after that we don't have to be in dept. So basically we do have that what you described it is called basic income support,you do know that right?
In our free market the worker is free to go wherever they want and get a better job a different job
For those asking where the money comes from at least one plan was relatively sound, taxing businesses that choose to heavily automate, every mcdonalds that replaces cashiers with kiosks, every walmart that replaces stockers with robots and cashiers with self check outs gets taxed higher based on the number of machines they've chosen to replace jobs with. These businesses have already proven they aren't going to do anything decent and are already ensuring their employees Have to use government programs just for Basic survival, since they're doing it anyways why not make them responsible for the problems they're creating anyways. They want lower taxes they have to supply more jobs, they want to not pay employees and create a higher unemployment rate they can cover the cost of it existing.
The people that think that most would stop working and live from the government are like my MIL. She got angry when my parrner told her that I am applying for help for my disabilities and said that "I need to focus on getting better" (my diseases are chronic and will just get worse). Does she really think that I orefer to be locked at home earning 300-500 euros a month instead of having a job, feeling useful, having colleagues and earning at minimum 1500 euros that is the minimum wage here? F**k her.
How about Universal Basic Food? Not even going so far as the rest of the essentials, just food.
But we do have that in many of the European countries. We do have our basics covered by the government such as rent food electricity etc.If we quit or lose our jobs. So we don't have to live in a constant fear of losing our jobs or taking shot from our employers. We do have laws to protect workers and the way it is done in America would never pass here.And yes, we still have most of our citizens working.even the "shittiest jobs " and yes there are still some who takes advantage of this but still our countries are wealthy, working and doing actually fine. And our education is free to certain point and even after that we don't have to be in dept. So basically we do have that what you described it is called basic income support,you do know that right?
Load More Replies...I think it could work if everyone made minimum wage and you still get paid if you have a job, so the incentive to work is to live a nicer lifestyle, be able to travel etc. Not many able bodied people would sit on their butt forever if they were just getting enough money for rent, food and healthcare. So if you want any luxuries in life you work for them but at the same time you don't have to stay at a toxic job environment because if you quit you still have the basics and you can look for another job to provide the luxuries.
I think slot of the " people won't work" comes from the fact that in the US people are burnt out. There is no vacation/ sick , so many would love to just rest. It the money/ time theory. They want time off. But after about a year of this, many would be " whew, thanks for the break, really want that new xbox/ mountain bike , let me go get a job that pays"
Load More Replies...If we had a higher minimum wage we would not need free money. Tell me you dont know many people who would never work.
Wow what an ignorant bitch. Not ALL CONSERVATIVES hold that opinion I suffered so everyone else should..Thats a broad statement on HUGE number of people. This kinda s**t just scares me anyways because feels like part of AGENDA to ruin America and economy to become communist because everyone seems to think free stuff from government is great! Until it actually happens..
When you are handed everything do you gain any understanding of the value in things? Plus, you can't convince me that people will still do the nasty jobs, the labor-intensive jobs, the jobs that nobody even wants to do today while getting paid to do them. What if everyone decided that they didn't want to work a particular job even though it was desperately needed? Nobody doing it. Period. Then what?
I like the graduated welfare scheme, first proposed by someone working for Reagan. They said, let's come up with the basic amount someone has to live on. And if the don't make that amount, we supplement. So day it is 25000. Of you make 10, 000 , you get 15000. If you make 20,000, you get 5000. The problem with welfare ( as currently set up ) , it's an all or nothing kind of thing. This would also help eliminate the administrational overhead , which eats up a large chunk of the budget.
I had read through these comments and I am at least happy to see that there are people who see how fundamentally dumb this post is. People are selfish. Can some put that aside for a time? Absolutely. But the fundamentals don’t change and because of that, this would never work. Studies are exactly that: short term studies; and because of that are not a reliable source of information for this. People are capable of great and amazingly selfless things, but not on a constant and long lasting basis.
People being selfish ruin every economic model, including the one we currently use. The only difference is who benefits from the selfishness. For you to use this argument is total BS. It would only be a rational argument if you explained how selfish people in a UBI model are more detrimental than selfish people in the current model.
Load More Replies...It's a nice fairy tale but the only places UBI is offered in large scale are IRAN and Mongolia. A few other countries are trying small scale (a few hundred people) UBI programs, that amount to little more then welfare.
I was not a fan of UBI and still in the fence - but Andrew Yang's appearance on the Joe Rogan podcast - listen all the way through- had a profound impact on my thinking on this topic,especially relative to all of the human-based jobs (yes, trash collection. Also brain surgery) that is or will soon be done efficiently by AI and robots.
Where does this money come from? How do you keep the government out of crippling debt? How does the economy stay afloat?
Okay since this is striking a nerve for a lot of people; Google the Venus project for an even better idea than a UBI
I suspect the downvote comes from someone who has extrapolated from the Venus Project to ZOMG ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!! OH NOES!!
Load More Replies...I don't think that would work. Where would the money came from? Can we really pay it from taxes?
This idea was trialed in Finland. Failed and was scrapped early. Hardly anyone was incentivised
Yes and no. Like so many things it was never a black-and-white issue. In the first place it wasn't actually Universal, it was carried out among a control group, secondly it was rushed into place without proper procedures in place and thirdly it was partly sabotaged by political shenanigans. There are of course other nuances and going at it half-arsed didn't help.
Load More Replies...Luckily they will be soon - as in; within our lifetime
Load More Replies...Also imagine a world where there is no poverty, no crime, no violence, no disease, no death, everyone has all the food and water and drinks and candy they want. Everyone gets free videogames, free streaming, free internet, free all the resources you could possibly want, everyone gets a perfect partner and everyone is happy all the time. What? I said IMAGINE it. It's a dream. it's never gonna happen because it's impossible.
Just like your sex life !BUUURRRNNNN! LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Load More Replies...This is a Marxist idea. The workers are oppressed and need to take the control of the world and that will create the utopia. Yeah look at the country's that have tried extrem socialism or communism it dose not work that well. People would not get proper educations because they can live without striving for a good job. You would stop many great inventions or creativity because the need and desperation is driving that forward. And no hard/bad jobs would get done properly. It would also create big inflation on the economy because you add an that money to the system.
It would be enough if the employment market was a market of equals. But, as you see everywhere, the rich either control the legislation, or benefit from not having any - and spend a lot to spread the ideas that this is the only way it works. While we know exactly nothing more than that this society and economy will survive the soviet-communism, which in itself is already a misconception of what Marx' books said and maybe shouldn't even carry that name. We only know capitalism collapses slower than that - nothing more adds to the notion this was the closest to any utopias we can get. So, why not try out UBI? Don't see why it would be worse.
Since all of the money for UBI would come from taxes: 1) how sustainable would this system be, without raising taxes to fund it or taking away govt funding to other services/purposes (especially since no sector ever feels it has enough funding), and 2) instead of taxing people and then giving back whatever UBI amount is deemed appropriate, why not just tax people less and people get to keep more of the money they earn? It would amount to the same thing but would cut out the time that people go without their own earnings from monthly tax deductions - instead of a (potential) partial refund once a year, each person keeps more of their earnings every month.
Lazy people are pushing this. Instead lets organize for 15.00 as my kids are doing ok but i wish yours that are working could do good also
Nope, 15.00 is too much for your lazy kids. Make them work for less like you did, you cuck.
Load More Replies...Wait so does everyone in every position earn the same? Why even go to college then? Why would someone go through the long grueling process of studying medicine if there’s no financial payoff? Who would clean toilets when you can just sit at home eating Cheetos? This is a terrible idea to be honest, like where does everyone’s income come from? Taxes? If everyone’s taxed enough to make this possible, how does anyone have money left?
Maybe people become a doctor because they want to and they have the brain to do so because their parents actually have time to read to them when they are small children.
Load More Replies...All of Europe called. They were gonna clown you but they figured with your American education it’d be kinda unethical.
Load More Replies...So.........WHERE is all of this supposed gov't money to come from to pay all these millions and millions of people a UI?? You think the corrupt politicians are going to take CUTS in their pay??? You think the corrupt politicians are going to stop voting themselves high percentage raises and perks every year? WORKING people pay taxes, and these taxes are what pays these lazy jackasses to sit on their fat rumps all day whining and complaining about not having money, instead of getting off their damned easy chairs and looking for work!! WHY pay people to sit on their ass? WHY take money from the working class? WHY don't you FORCE all the millions and millions of lazy f*cks in this country to WORK and PAY TAXES for a few years and give the actual working person a break for once!!
So should we force all those who inherited millions and don't work to get a job ? Because they are lazy ? They pay less taxes percentage wise, do they should have to work and pay.
Load More Replies...Then society will stay pretty much where it’s at right now, which is corrupt and collapsing.
Load More Replies...So what? Why wouldn’t you spend some of your own money on weed or whatever? That’s literally what money is for. Don’t you have a 4chan meeting or something?
Load More Replies...
138
247