Mom Asks If She Was Wrong Not To Give Up Her Daughter’s Train Seat Though Another Passenger Paid For It
Since Agatha Christie’s ‘Murder On the Orient Express’, trains have always been the scene of drama of varying degrees of complexity and intricacy. Passengers quarrel with each other, with conductors and employees of the railway, accuse each other of lacking tickets – and then just vent about it on the internet.
If you have small children, you probably know what a nightmare a long train journey can be – not only for you, but for other passengers as well. If not – well, then this story may also be of interest to you.
The original post, published on the AITA Reddit community, received over 7.1K upvotes and approximately 3K various comments, with almost all of the authors unanimous in their opinion. But what was this opinion – now we’ll just find out.
More info: Reddit
The Original Poster and her two kids went for a train journey to visit her uncle for New Year’s Eve
Image credits: Pablo Nieto Abad (not the actual image)
So, the OP is the mother of two, a 7 Y.O. girl and a 4 Y.O. boy. At Christmas, she was unable to visit her uncle, who was suffering from cancer, so she decided to visit him on New Year’s Eve. Mom and children took COVID tests to make sure that their arrival would not be dangerous for a man with his disease, and at the last moment, it turned out that all three were healthy.
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
The OP had to buy tickets literally at the last moment so they didn’t manage to reserve any particular seats
Due to the fact that they had to wait for the test results, and the OP was not sure until the last moment whether they would be able to go, they had to buy train tickets right before the journey – so it was not possible to reserve any specific seats. The mother and children got on the train – they had almost seven hours to ride, so she wanted the children to sit next to her.
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
There were not many people in the car, but it was impossible to find three seats side by side, except for the seats marked as reserved. Since no one was sitting there, the woman decided to settle down in these places, and in case their owners appeared, to just try to negotiate with them somehow.
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
Finally the man showed up who appeared to be the owner of the seat occupied by the OP’s daughter
Time passed, the train continued, new passengers gradually appeared, and so gradually the car was almost full. Finally, after a few hours of riding, a man appeared, apparently trying to find his seat. As the OP says, he rather rudely demanded that the passengers move back, showing him the seat numbers, but was looking for one.
Image credits: Janusz Jakubowsi (not the actual image)
Mom asked the man to take another seat, but he refused in rather rude words
Finally, the angry passenger reached the OP with her children, and it turned out that the OP’s daughter was already sitting in his reserved seat. Just as angrily, the man demanded that the girl make room for him, but the mother, indignant at the tone of his voice, ordered her daughter to stay where she was.
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
As a result of the argument, the OP tried to explain that her children were tired and suggested that the man take some other free seat. The passenger did not agree, stating that he specifically paid for this particular seat. A few minutes later he left, and the OP already decided that the conflict was over – but no such luck!
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
The angry passenger ended up being dropped off at the nearest station
The passenger returned with a member of the staff, and claimed that the OP actually stole his seat. Apparently, the railway employee was a bit shocked by such a tone of voice as well, so she also invited the man to take any empty seat. He was again outraged, arguing that children could not be above the law, and was ordered to exit the train at the next station.
Image credits: u/Trainnightmare
The OP continued on her way, and her children were also shocked by this conflict. In her own words, she is not sure if she did the right thing – and the opinions of her relatives about this situation were split.
Image credits: Susan Jane Golding (not the actual image)
Most of the people in the comments told the OP that she was wrong and even was teaching her kids to be entitled
But the people in the comments had only one opinion – the passenger paid for his seat, so the OP was supposed to give it to him, as the rules are the same for everyone. The commenters were surprised – after all, if, according to the OP, the car was not full at the beginning of their trip, why did she and the children necessarily take the reserved seats?
Some commenters have gone even further, claiming that she is harming her own children with her behavior, clearly teaching them to be entitled. In any case, even if the passenger agreed with the OP and moved to an empty seat, then an incident could occur with another person who might have also booked this other seat.
We, for our part, really want to know your opinion about this story, so feel free to write about it in the comments. And if you’ve been a part of train drama too, we’d like to know your own tale!
There is nothing more frustrating than paying extra for a reserved seat only for cheapskate, entitled assholes to take over.
And the weirdest thing about it is the woman seriously did not see anything wrong with her behavior!! I mean how far up your a** does your head have to be in order to not see that taking something another person paid for is wrong? Her daughter is going to be on a viral video in 20 years, cussing out coffee shop employees and screaming at managers...just you wait.
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Worst part is the man was kicked of the train. I hope he sues the train company
YTA. You should have apologized and offered an explanation. It more that likely would have diffused the situation. Where were your seats and why weren't you in them? Were they not all together?
@LuckyL She said the seats were reserved, so unless this is a country where reserved means something else, he specifically paid for that seat. If I were in his situation, I would've been irritated, too. I wouldn't have screamed at the child, but probably would've ended up yelling at the mother if my she continued like this. I don't care if there is something that's the exact same, if I paid for it, it means I paid specifically for it. You're free to call me a Karen for it, but if I got kicked out of the train for wanting to sit in the seat I PAID for, that companies head office or would have gotten a complain the next day.
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This story has a distinctive odor to it. I'd be interested in hearing how it actually played out without OP's embellishments about the guy's theatrics.
Quite. Often the 'they started screaming' is someone's attempt to make the other person look bad because they want to get people on-side. People seriously do exaggerate. Anyway, it is the seat he reserved and telling him to sit in other seats? No. He'll only end up getting moved when the person who reserved THAT seat gets on! Why should he? You haven't reserved a seat, that's life and it's often tough. Doesn't harm children to know they won't get their way in life just because they want something - the reverse in fact.
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Wow it's not very often in these I say YTA but... you ARE TA. I thought long and hard about this. Because I just found out I'm going to be a first time Grandma. Now it's been quite a while since I've dealt with babies and small children, a bit out of practice if you will. But I promise you this: If me and my soon to be grand baby were traveling and we were fortunate enough to sit in that kind of section because the train is empty ish, I would explain to my grandchild (as you should've explained to your kid(s) ) If someone comes that owns these seats we are moving. I don't care the reason we are moving. Way to raise a future AH.
I swear I heard this story from the guys prospective recently or at least a similar one. Yes she’s TA. Her idea of rude is ridiculous. The guy asked to see the seat numbers and that’s rude to her? She stole his seat and acted entitled to seats that won’t hers. Ugh entitled moms are the worse
Don't you just want to punch some people through their screen?
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Most definately an entitled a*****e. If it's so easy for this dude to go to another seat because they were open, then get you're lazy a*s up and let your kid get the seat you wanted her to have so bad even if you have to stand. Man this s**t woulda pissed me off if I saw it.
Yep. They should move but be prepared to move again - the other seats are also reserved for a reason. Why should he keep moving?
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I’m a single mom with 2 kids (13m & 11f now) and we have traveled both domestically and internationally since they were little, usually 4-6 times a year. It would never occur to me, EVER, to ask someone to switch seats. Knowing I have kids who want to sit all together- I PLAN. I’m on the seating charts well in advance and if I can’t find joining seats- I find another flight/train. Lately, as kids are getting older, I’ve had parents with younger children ask us to move to accommodate them and they throw out the “Because you know how hard it is!. And I do. Because I did it and never made my poor planning someone else's problem. I politely tell them, yes, I understand, but no- we paid for our chosen seats and will not move. Furious and rude comments from them usually fly after that :) Once, when we didn’t have seats together, a lovely soul OFFERED to switch and I accepted thankfully. And bought them cocktails for the entire flight.
I bet "yelled" in this instance means "dared to speak to my child in any manner other than to praise". In other words, entitled mom wants to make the guy look bad. And if the attendant really did tell him to sit elsewhere or kick the guy the company needs to be put on blast. This isn't hard - I paid for that seat, you took it. It's stealing.
Pretty sure the train person said she would have to move. A paid seat is a paid seat. I'm also sure that the train attendant would have moved some unreserved people to make room for her. This is not how they work. Friend works for RR an concurred this.
If he was acting like this there is a good possibility that there may be a bit of a mental illness with the man. By booking a specific seat it helps him cope with no surprises when on the journey. You caused a great deal of stress to the man and your sense of entitlement is disgusting.
I wouldn't necessarily say mental illness. Keep in mind you are getting the story from the perspective of someone trying to justify their own actions. Maybe this guy was on his way to a funeral or just having a crappy day and Entitled Karen pushed him past his limit and got upset (we can't actually be sure how angry he actually did get). If he was getting kicked off, she should have been kicked out for starting it. The seat was marked reserved, she knew that and sat there anyway...and then refused to move!
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Did he have to yell at the child? No. Was he entitled to the seat he PAID FOR? Absolutely. YTA.
You believe her about that? Only her word for it that he yelled at the child. Often people embellish stories to make them seem the innocent victim (especially to beleaguered staff to get their way) despite knowing they weren't in the right at all. For all we know he was reasonable to start with and then got cross with HER and did little wrong. We know SHE was the one out of order with insisting they stayed. Her 'I wasn't sure what I could even do at that point'... MOVE! She could have stood while her children sat! Who wouldn't have been frustrated with her? He can't go and perpetuate the problem by taking other people's seats! The problem is that those who make the most noise get the blame. I would NOT assume this person is honest, they certainly aren't considerate.
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One hundred percent the AH. Why do people automatically assume that if they have "children" the rest of us have to bow down for them? I have seen this more times than I can count - I am child free by choice and people constantly am asking me to move, give up something, or bend over backwards "for the children:" Unreal
Same, your choice to have kids was not my choice. I'm happy to help someone with kids if I'm asked nicely or see that someone needs help, but not if an entitled AH demands it of me.
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Over 3000 replies to the original post and I didn't see a single NTA so......
If this is a story from the UK, it sounds like she must have taken over a bank of 4 seats with a table in the middle. People reserve these seats so they have a space to work with their laptops (or families actually reserve them so they can sit together). Train tickets in the UK cost A LOT. There also used to be a thing where kids under a certain age could travel without a ticket but they were not guaranteed a seat, and had to go on a lap if the train filled up. This woman is completely in the wrong.
Weird. If it was my kid, regardless of how rude the guy was, I'd simply tell her to move elsewhere and if necessary I'd move with her. I have been on trains before, if the train is half empty there are probably plenty of other seats to use. Just be glad that you got to seat together for a while. Uncle with cancer, traveling with kids, those things are all irrelevant. I have had sick relatives and I traveled with kids. I didn't think it gave me the right to occupy seats that weren't mine.
Not only is she the AH but she's teaching her young, impressionable children to be AHs.
Regardless of why you traveling, someone else should not be punished for your bad planning. You know what "Reserved" means. And gosh, what a way to teach your kids being entitled in society is okay.
What even is the point of a reserved seat if everyone just sits where they want?
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She's the a****le here. He paid for the seat - women with children seem to think that their comforts are all that matters and the rest of us should just go along with it. Not his fault she has kids - and he paid for that seat. Run into women like that on city busses constantly.
Mom created the problem. And made it worse by pretending to ignore passengers looking for seats, thought she could get away with it. His rudeness, she likely caused, in his frustration of not being able to find his reserved seat. It's okay to occupy vacant seats, but when people are looking for their own, you can't stick your head up in the clouds and ignore.
She should've got up and moved instead of letting her kid get yelled at.
IF they got yelled at... people lie to get others to sympathise with them. She probably lied to the staff on the train as well to get her own way.
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I've heard of similar incidents with people booking last minute travels, only to complain about the conditions. Your poor planning is no one's problem but your own. You want better seats? Then make sure to book it on time. If I paid extra to reserve a certain seat, I'd be pretty pissed if some entitled b***h refused to give it up. What an example you are setting for your children.
This level of a$$holery smacks of a blatant disregard for other people's rights and feelings. She's not going to accept that she was in the wrong even if the internet responds with a 100% YTA. I have a family member like this. It's the children I feel for, as this is their first and primary adult role model. *Edit* We need to consider that we are only hearing half the story. Many people embellish details to better support their stand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Of course YTA. Do you even have to ask???? We never had this kind of problem while travelling in China. Of course someone sits on your seat before someone shows their ticket and then they either go elsewhere or stand. We're all looking for free seats, whatever our age but if someone shows you their ticket, you move away. Is it so difficult to understand? I am shocked by this story.
Yes ma'am you are the a*****e.. particularly a Karen in this case
Having children on the train with you doesn't entitle you to take someone's seat. Your post read you were going to sit there while it wasn't full yet, but continued to sit there when the person who reserved the seat came to claim it you didn't move. Yes the man was rude. He was obviously irritated that he could not find his seat. He could have sat somewhere else but why should he? He paid for his seat ahead of time. Next time ask staff member to help you keep together if it happens again.
At first, I was going with NTA, but she clearly knew the seats she chose were reserved because they were MARKED as reserved. She said nothing about them being the only 3 seats together at all, which is the only way it would be acceptable since you absolutely keep a 4 year old or a 7 year old with you. Definitely YTA, but the man is a little bit of one for yelling at the kid.
I can understand her being upset and not thinking straight when she picked the reserved seats. Mistakes happen when you're tired and upset. But when he asked for his seat she should have moved.
He might well have been tired too. They weren't being made to walk, just sit apart. In the same carriage. Plenty of other ways she could have dealt with it. Four year old can sit on her lap or the two children can share a seat (I've done that!) and the parent can stand. Not fun but not anyone else's problem.
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I understand that going through a difficult time, you just want some relief, but this person paid for his seat! What if he was experiencing some pain in his life, but because your kids were tired and you didn't reserve your seats, he gets put off the train?!? He paid for his seat...that's it! He shouldn't have to move because the train wasn't full, you move! definitely the A hole in this.
It's very telling that she has to start by saying she's visiting her uncle with cancer, insinuating that she should be catered to. That detail had absolutely nothing to do with the situation.
She should stop using her kids as an excuse for p**s poor, entitled behavior. If I was that man, I would be aggravated too. And to make it worse, she thinks he should go take possibly someone else's seat, which would start even more trouble. How selfish can u get. She is the crux of the problem.
I've been in this situation before and, as an autistic person who struggles massively in crowds and relies on predictability, this woman is a major arsehole. You chose to have kids, I didn't choose to be autistic: screw your entitled attitude.
The OP is an entitled wh0re. Full stop. She took something somebody else paid for. And the nitwits on the train let her get away with it. Her kids will likely grow up to be worthless, entitled a$$holes like their mom.
I believe she knows that she was in the wrong. Why else would you bring up the cancer stricken uncle. Not to minimize his health but it had nothing to do with the train situation. If you take a seat you know is not yours to begin with- be prepared to move if the rightful owner comes along.
Jeez, for all you know, *THIS* man just left the hospital bedside of his terminally-ill relative who he's been visiting daily, and he reserved a seat to be sure he had one. He too could be absolutely exhausted and hesrtsore, and at the end of his patience rope. This woman's carelessness and self-absorbtion, and the injustice done to that ma, are of almost legendary proportion. Lady is totally TA.
I've had to book late before and couldn't find seats all together. You know what I did? Politely asked if an attendant would be willing to assist me in finding someone willing to switch so that I could try to sit with my (at the time) 3 year old. You know what I did not do? Sit in someone else's seat and then demand it was mine. Especially not on a holiday trip. That woman not only stole money indirectly from that man but she also may have made it so he couldn't go see HIS family.
I love how OP tells her sob story expecting sympathy. Maybe the guy had his own sob story and that's why he acted like an A-hole too. I won't justify the his behaviour but OP is definitely the instigator. It's his seat, get out and speak to the staff to help arrange seating for her and her kids. There is usually someone willing to relocate to accommodate a family. If I was the one responsible there, I would have kicked them all off!
The woman felt that they were entitled and they sat in reserved seats. I'm blind in my left eye. I reserve seats where my right side in by the window..
Sorry, but you exacerbated a situation where you were already at fault. Your hoping that he wouldn't want the seat he paid for obviously didn't work, and instead of apologizing, you got offended. The train staff could just as easily helped you with the seating when you first got on. Why did you think no one else would be riding the train on a holiday?
This woman is entitled. She thinks she can do what she wants just because? Sorry lady, life doesn't work that way. Yes you are totally the a*****e and no that guy wasn't in the wrong. I hope you learned a lesson. You aren't entitled to anything and neither is anyone else. He paid it's his.
She didn’t learn anything, the train company catered to her hideously appalling entitlement. I want justice for this guy, damn it.
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I needed to take a long coach journey last month. I traveled out of my way so as to pick it up at the first stop so I could have choice of seat - I thought it worth the extra time and money as I have a few problems. However, when we got to what was my most natural pick up point, a woman got on with 3 kids, all too young to sit alone. I felt bad and got up, saying to the lad next to me (a stranger) if we both moved, they could sit together. Before long, on of the kids came and gave me a cup cake, to thank me, as soon as he left I offered it to woman next to me as I didn't want it. I ended up chatting with this woman and we kept in touch. Karma gave me a new friend. As for OP, she was in the wrong, lots of people have real problems. The man might have chosen that specific seat for a reason or he may have had an issue where he was mentally unable to sit anywhere except his assigned seat. People can become house bound by experience like she put him through.
The woman is a major AH and a terrible parent. You did steal the seat and then had the nerve to act entitled. People like you make the world a worse place for all of us. You should be ashamed.
Yes, she definitely took the 'my problem' is now 'your problem ' approach. Using the fact he was rude to gain moral ground is no excuse.
Yeah you are TAH. The man paid for the seats. There is no argument that can make what you did right. You manipulated the situation and not even once do i think the way you explained how you acted to the man initially when the attandant was not there is how you stated. He did not act the way he should have or else he would bot have gotten kicked off. Regardless he had money stolen from him and kicked off in a random town to be forced to buy another train ticket and wait whatever layover period he had to. I hope he sues that train company they deserve it and he should get a decent settlment offer plus the said attendant that had him removed probably will lose her job. All of this thanks to your entitled mindset. People need to understand your actions have lasting consequences that ripple thru the world around you every bad thing you do spreads more bad. Others have and will suffer from you actions.
YTA. And I don't believe that staff sided with her. Unless he seemed to exhibit dangerous behavior which I doubt, the staff will get in trouble for kicking a passenger off just because he demanded a reserved seat he paid for.
YTA...YTA...YTA... YOU ARE THE A*****E... He paid for that seat and you stole it. I would have had your a*s tossed out.
If this is to be taken at face value (I suspect that some of this was hammed up to make the OP sound like an angel) then ETA. Even if the guy was a jerk he was still right. Your children don't give you special privileges. If you need 3 seats next to each other then reserve them ahead of time like this guy did. I hate when parents think that a functioning uterus exempts them from the rules the rest of us have to live under.
I would be pissed too, if your child was in my seat THAT I PAID FOR! Also, I hope he made them reimburse him for his reserved seat! What is wrong with you -that you would take seats that say RESERVED!! Definitely YATA!! Big time! Karma will come for you one day.
The OP never indicates any concern that the man whose seat she had stolen might also have had a very bad day, be very tired, perhaps feel unwell, and HE HAD BOUGHT AND PAID FOR THAT SEAT. She is totally TA.
wtf is wrong with this person? so only what she wants matters? she even got him kicked off the train ???!!! how the f**k knows where this man was going or who he was going to see. maybe he also had a sick uncle. wtf, what a piece of trash person.
She's completely the AH. Maybe the other guy overreacted, but maybe he was also special needs, like autistic, so scheduling ahead of time a seat was very important to him, and when she ruined his routine, of course he would have been highly agitated. And she's teaching her kids to be entitled. Double AH for that.
You were both incredibly childish. Having said that you were the instigator of this and you had the responsibility to yield the seat. You took what someone else paid for that is the definition of a thief
I travel a lot by train and always make reservations for a seat. If someone is ditting in my spot and there are still free seats, I just sit in another one. But if the train is full, I politely ask to sit in the seat I have a reservation for and never had anyone argue with me. I mean, I would be upset if someone would not do it but also probably not make a fuss, if someone asks nicely for their child.
Trouble with sitting in one of the other free seats is that they are usually reserved as well. That's been my experience. I've sat there until the person who reserved it got on and then I have moved - my lack of a reserved seat (booked through work so booked out, but not home as not sure when that would be) is not their problem.
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What's the blather all about, here. Mother should have given way, the KAREN should have QUIETLY been compassionate and flexible and sat elsewhere. Staff was correct to eject the guy at the end, but first should have helped the family resettle when the guy first exercised his right to his reserved seat.
Staff were probably told 'he yelled at my child' and he was at this point extremely frustrated and that is all the staff saw so believed her. I don't. She says 'what was I supposed to do' as if leaving the seats wasn't an option as 'they were tired'. So what and boo-hoo. She has no idea what the man is going through, he might well be very tired himself. He might even be ill, it's not her business and he doesn't have to explain - he has reserved the seat for a reason and paid for it. She and her children are no doubt healthy otherwise she would have said so, she sounds that type. If she had moved, none of this would have happened. If you don't reserve a seat you end up separated, standing or sitting on the floor.
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I don't understand, did her kids have tickets, but their seats were in the different parts of the train? If so, she could just offer that man to take one of their seats instead of telling him to just pick any free seat. Or they just hopped the train with no tickets at all?
In some countries (maybe companies) you pay for the journey, not the seat. You pay extra to reserve a seat. If you have to book a journey last minute you might end up standing or on the floor - train companies rarely care. So no guarantee of a seat. Even if there are spare seats I have found they are also usually reserved so you can't take those either - not without getting moved later on in the journey. Tough if you are travelling last minute - but that's life!
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OP was definitely showing entitlement, but if what she said was true (NOT saying that I believe 100%, but hypothetically) then they are both being kind of a-holes. She should have realized that she was technically robbing him of his money, and (if he really was as aggressive as OP said) he should've tried to calm down a bit more. It's a public space, and surely all members involved in the interaction were tired and grumpy. What they should've done to avoid conflict was for OP to ask nicely if he could let her use the seat, and when he said no, she could've gotten up and either stood while her children sat or moved somewhere else and asked other people if they could move. She didn't deserve to have someone yell at her child (because that is a CHILD, a small emotionally unstable human who would not understand the extent of the situation), and he didn't deserve to have his seat stolen by a woman trying to argue "because of the children".
Of course, she is TA. She's an even worse AH for even considering that she was not wrong and actually going on Reddit to ask others! Wow, just WOW!!! #Karen much?
This happened to me on a flight. I reserved my window seat because it was a late flight and I wanted to sleep. While we were looking for our seat, a family took my seat and the flight attendant just told me to seat anywhere because the were late to depart. I sat on other seat and hold and behold the owner wanted his seat.
Honestly, ESH. Her entitlement was shitty, his behavior was shitty enough to get him kicked off. She shouldn't have done that especially once she realised he was looking for his seat, he shouldn't have behaved in such a way as to p**s off every passenger he was rude to.
Honestly can see from both sides. OP Honestly, they couldn't book in time as they had to wait to make sure they were negative for covid, so they didn't get their family member who had cancer sick. And maybe there were no seats for all of them to be with each other when they boarded the train? "Fairly empty" may mean people had taken seats that they would have sat at if they could sit together. When traveling with a 6yr old and a 4yr old, YOU need to have them by you in this crazy world. Yes, I understand the guy paid for those seats, but maybe he could have helped them get others to move and help them move instead of yelling at them. Either way, both parties are at fault, I feel.
Finally, a comment with some empathy. A thousand percent agree.
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Not picking sides on this one. Both sides have a good argument and it's sounding like while there are other seats empty, not are 3 together. It takes a special kind of jerk to demand a child move somewhere else and the expect a parent not sit with young children. I've actually been in this exact scenario thanks to an overbooked flight. Other passengers were at least nice enough to be sure their mothers sat with our kids while I ended up sandwiched in a center seat while I had a reserved window seat. I took it and life goes on. It would've been great to see the conductor take the 3some to a more expensive seat to accommodate the jerk
You never know if the owner of the seat that you are stealing is a psycho-killer. Thieves beware. God is watching.
Both parties were wrong. The man was probably exhausted but still didn't give him the right to act so demanding and belligerent. The woman should have asked the man, like hey, is it alright if we could stay here? Especially if there were other seats that were still available of equal leg room, or whatever. I would keep my one kid on my lap and give the man his seat back just because it was his and in this crazy world of child abductions I wouldn't let my kid out of my sight. COVID also has made everything stinky in that she couldn't really book ahead of time until she knew for sure she didn't have it. So all the people saying she should have reserved sooner didn't read all the way through. Her uncle has cancer and shouldn't be exposed to it. It's a hard situation all the way around. It's something that both parties could have resolved. Unfortunately due to all things Covid people have gotten exhausted and stretched to the max, causing us to act more crabby and entitled.
I don't agree. I don't think it's a grey area. Now if it was really a 4 seater and they were only taking up 3 then yes she should have moved her daughter. Now OP said her children are 7 and 4. I would be terrified not to sit with my kids. Especially on a long train ride and especially with them at that age. She repeatedly states that there weren't any seats that were by each other that the other seats were sporadically placed around. I have never been on a train and only a plane once so maybe I just don't understand the etiquette that much. He didn't ask her daughter to move. He told her and rather rudely at that. I'm gonna tell you now, if you tell my child to do something rudely instead of asking me to ask my daughter to move, I'm gonna do the same damn thing and I'm gonna start hollering over that man harassing my child. He obviously doesn't understand how to talk to a child, one that has no relation to him. Imo they were both assholes but her less so
I’m gonna say NTA cause you booked these tickets at the last minute and didn’t have time for the reservation and there where plenty of available seats open. You all are traveling the same direction and this man was going up and down looking for his seat and a 7 girl is not tall enough to obscure the seat number on the headrest. The man was being a douche bag by his attitude and actions and for all those who are calling this lady trying to get to a family member who has CANCER an AH then you obviously don’t have a family member who’s got Cancer and would know what that strains that puts on a family. And for others, READ the article fully before you say something and pass judgment. BTW, the man reserved a seat means that no matter what or how full the compartment gets, he is guaranteed a seat. And each train compartment has only so many seats in each car
If it had a reserved sign on it then yes he paid extra. It doesnt matter why, but it is a much higher price to reserve a specific seat.
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I don't think he should have yelled at that child but at the same time he bought that ticket and he paid for it and he was allowed to sit there so if the mom had any ounce of balls she wouldn't just moved
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The mother could have left him with her children... That would have been a disaster for him!
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I'm skeptical about what the AH said about the train employee. I view this as no different from seating on some airplanes. You pay extra for a reserved seat so you can sit in it, not as a gift to some Karen. I know any flight attendant would do the right thing and ask you to move. Are train employees so different?
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reserving seats in the uk usually means you pay extra. the way this post is written sounds like a lot of things about the mans behaviour could be made up. sit down.
Load More Replies... There is nothing more frustrating than paying extra for a reserved seat only for cheapskate, entitled assholes to take over.
And the weirdest thing about it is the woman seriously did not see anything wrong with her behavior!! I mean how far up your a** does your head have to be in order to not see that taking something another person paid for is wrong? Her daughter is going to be on a viral video in 20 years, cussing out coffee shop employees and screaming at managers...just you wait.
Load More Replies... Worst part is the man was kicked of the train. I hope he sues the train company
YTA. You should have apologized and offered an explanation. It more that likely would have diffused the situation. Where were your seats and why weren't you in them? Were they not all together?
@LuckyL She said the seats were reserved, so unless this is a country where reserved means something else, he specifically paid for that seat. If I were in his situation, I would've been irritated, too. I wouldn't have screamed at the child, but probably would've ended up yelling at the mother if my she continued like this. I don't care if there is something that's the exact same, if I paid for it, it means I paid specifically for it. You're free to call me a Karen for it, but if I got kicked out of the train for wanting to sit in the seat I PAID for, that companies head office or would have gotten a complain the next day.
Load More Replies... This story has a distinctive odor to it. I'd be interested in hearing how it actually played out without OP's embellishments about the guy's theatrics.
Quite. Often the 'they started screaming' is someone's attempt to make the other person look bad because they want to get people on-side. People seriously do exaggerate. Anyway, it is the seat he reserved and telling him to sit in other seats? No. He'll only end up getting moved when the person who reserved THAT seat gets on! Why should he? You haven't reserved a seat, that's life and it's often tough. Doesn't harm children to know they won't get their way in life just because they want something - the reverse in fact.
Load More Replies... Wow it's not very often in these I say YTA but... you ARE TA. I thought long and hard about this. Because I just found out I'm going to be a first time Grandma. Now it's been quite a while since I've dealt with babies and small children, a bit out of practice if you will. But I promise you this: If me and my soon to be grand baby were traveling and we were fortunate enough to sit in that kind of section because the train is empty ish, I would explain to my grandchild (as you should've explained to your kid(s) ) If someone comes that owns these seats we are moving. I don't care the reason we are moving. Way to raise a future AH.
I swear I heard this story from the guys prospective recently or at least a similar one. Yes she’s TA. Her idea of rude is ridiculous. The guy asked to see the seat numbers and that’s rude to her? She stole his seat and acted entitled to seats that won’t hers. Ugh entitled moms are the worse
Don't you just want to punch some people through their screen?
Load More Replies... Most definately an entitled a*****e. If it's so easy for this dude to go to another seat because they were open, then get you're lazy a*s up and let your kid get the seat you wanted her to have so bad even if you have to stand. Man this s**t woulda pissed me off if I saw it.
Yep. They should move but be prepared to move again - the other seats are also reserved for a reason. Why should he keep moving?
Load More Replies... I’m a single mom with 2 kids (13m & 11f now) and we have traveled both domestically and internationally since they were little, usually 4-6 times a year. It would never occur to me, EVER, to ask someone to switch seats. Knowing I have kids who want to sit all together- I PLAN. I’m on the seating charts well in advance and if I can’t find joining seats- I find another flight/train. Lately, as kids are getting older, I’ve had parents with younger children ask us to move to accommodate them and they throw out the “Because you know how hard it is!. And I do. Because I did it and never made my poor planning someone else's problem. I politely tell them, yes, I understand, but no- we paid for our chosen seats and will not move. Furious and rude comments from them usually fly after that :) Once, when we didn’t have seats together, a lovely soul OFFERED to switch and I accepted thankfully. And bought them cocktails for the entire flight.
I bet "yelled" in this instance means "dared to speak to my child in any manner other than to praise". In other words, entitled mom wants to make the guy look bad. And if the attendant really did tell him to sit elsewhere or kick the guy the company needs to be put on blast. This isn't hard - I paid for that seat, you took it. It's stealing.
Pretty sure the train person said she would have to move. A paid seat is a paid seat. I'm also sure that the train attendant would have moved some unreserved people to make room for her. This is not how they work. Friend works for RR an concurred this.
If he was acting like this there is a good possibility that there may be a bit of a mental illness with the man. By booking a specific seat it helps him cope with no surprises when on the journey. You caused a great deal of stress to the man and your sense of entitlement is disgusting.
I wouldn't necessarily say mental illness. Keep in mind you are getting the story from the perspective of someone trying to justify their own actions. Maybe this guy was on his way to a funeral or just having a crappy day and Entitled Karen pushed him past his limit and got upset (we can't actually be sure how angry he actually did get). If he was getting kicked off, she should have been kicked out for starting it. The seat was marked reserved, she knew that and sat there anyway...and then refused to move!
Load More Replies... Did he have to yell at the child? No. Was he entitled to the seat he PAID FOR? Absolutely. YTA.
You believe her about that? Only her word for it that he yelled at the child. Often people embellish stories to make them seem the innocent victim (especially to beleaguered staff to get their way) despite knowing they weren't in the right at all. For all we know he was reasonable to start with and then got cross with HER and did little wrong. We know SHE was the one out of order with insisting they stayed. Her 'I wasn't sure what I could even do at that point'... MOVE! She could have stood while her children sat! Who wouldn't have been frustrated with her? He can't go and perpetuate the problem by taking other people's seats! The problem is that those who make the most noise get the blame. I would NOT assume this person is honest, they certainly aren't considerate.
Load More Replies... One hundred percent the AH. Why do people automatically assume that if they have "children" the rest of us have to bow down for them? I have seen this more times than I can count - I am child free by choice and people constantly am asking me to move, give up something, or bend over backwards "for the children:" Unreal
Same, your choice to have kids was not my choice. I'm happy to help someone with kids if I'm asked nicely or see that someone needs help, but not if an entitled AH demands it of me.
Load More Replies... Over 3000 replies to the original post and I didn't see a single NTA so......
If this is a story from the UK, it sounds like she must have taken over a bank of 4 seats with a table in the middle. People reserve these seats so they have a space to work with their laptops (or families actually reserve them so they can sit together). Train tickets in the UK cost A LOT. There also used to be a thing where kids under a certain age could travel without a ticket but they were not guaranteed a seat, and had to go on a lap if the train filled up. This woman is completely in the wrong.
Weird. If it was my kid, regardless of how rude the guy was, I'd simply tell her to move elsewhere and if necessary I'd move with her. I have been on trains before, if the train is half empty there are probably plenty of other seats to use. Just be glad that you got to seat together for a while. Uncle with cancer, traveling with kids, those things are all irrelevant. I have had sick relatives and I traveled with kids. I didn't think it gave me the right to occupy seats that weren't mine.
Not only is she the AH but she's teaching her young, impressionable children to be AHs.
Regardless of why you traveling, someone else should not be punished for your bad planning. You know what "Reserved" means. And gosh, what a way to teach your kids being entitled in society is okay.
What even is the point of a reserved seat if everyone just sits where they want?
Load More Replies... Yeah, you're completely the arsehole and apparently don't understand how civilisation works.
She's the a****le here. He paid for the seat - women with children seem to think that their comforts are all that matters and the rest of us should just go along with it. Not his fault she has kids - and he paid for that seat. Run into women like that on city busses constantly.
Mom created the problem. And made it worse by pretending to ignore passengers looking for seats, thought she could get away with it. His rudeness, she likely caused, in his frustration of not being able to find his reserved seat. It's okay to occupy vacant seats, but when people are looking for their own, you can't stick your head up in the clouds and ignore.
She should've got up and moved instead of letting her kid get yelled at.
IF they got yelled at... people lie to get others to sympathise with them. She probably lied to the staff on the train as well to get her own way.
Load More Replies... I've heard of similar incidents with people booking last minute travels, only to complain about the conditions. Your poor planning is no one's problem but your own. You want better seats? Then make sure to book it on time. If I paid extra to reserve a certain seat, I'd be pretty pissed if some entitled b***h refused to give it up. What an example you are setting for your children.
This level of a$$holery smacks of a blatant disregard for other people's rights and feelings. She's not going to accept that she was in the wrong even if the internet responds with a 100% YTA. I have a family member like this. It's the children I feel for, as this is their first and primary adult role model. *Edit* We need to consider that we are only hearing half the story. Many people embellish details to better support their stand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Of course YTA. Do you even have to ask???? We never had this kind of problem while travelling in China. Of course someone sits on your seat before someone shows their ticket and then they either go elsewhere or stand. We're all looking for free seats, whatever our age but if someone shows you their ticket, you move away. Is it so difficult to understand? I am shocked by this story.
Yes ma'am you are the a*****e.. particularly a Karen in this case
Having children on the train with you doesn't entitle you to take someone's seat. Your post read you were going to sit there while it wasn't full yet, but continued to sit there when the person who reserved the seat came to claim it you didn't move. Yes the man was rude. He was obviously irritated that he could not find his seat. He could have sat somewhere else but why should he? He paid for his seat ahead of time. Next time ask staff member to help you keep together if it happens again.
At first, I was going with NTA, but she clearly knew the seats she chose were reserved because they were MARKED as reserved. She said nothing about them being the only 3 seats together at all, which is the only way it would be acceptable since you absolutely keep a 4 year old or a 7 year old with you. Definitely YTA, but the man is a little bit of one for yelling at the kid.
I can understand her being upset and not thinking straight when she picked the reserved seats. Mistakes happen when you're tired and upset. But when he asked for his seat she should have moved.
He might well have been tired too. They weren't being made to walk, just sit apart. In the same carriage. Plenty of other ways she could have dealt with it. Four year old can sit on her lap or the two children can share a seat (I've done that!) and the parent can stand. Not fun but not anyone else's problem.
Load More Replies... I understand that going through a difficult time, you just want some relief, but this person paid for his seat! What if he was experiencing some pain in his life, but because your kids were tired and you didn't reserve your seats, he gets put off the train?!? He paid for his seat...that's it! He shouldn't have to move because the train wasn't full, you move! definitely the A hole in this.
It's very telling that she has to start by saying she's visiting her uncle with cancer, insinuating that she should be catered to. That detail had absolutely nothing to do with the situation.
She should stop using her kids as an excuse for p**s poor, entitled behavior. If I was that man, I would be aggravated too. And to make it worse, she thinks he should go take possibly someone else's seat, which would start even more trouble. How selfish can u get. She is the crux of the problem.
I've been in this situation before and, as an autistic person who struggles massively in crowds and relies on predictability, this woman is a major arsehole. You chose to have kids, I didn't choose to be autistic: screw your entitled attitude.
The OP is an entitled wh0re. Full stop. She took something somebody else paid for. And the nitwits on the train let her get away with it. Her kids will likely grow up to be worthless, entitled a$$holes like their mom.
I believe she knows that she was in the wrong. Why else would you bring up the cancer stricken uncle. Not to minimize his health but it had nothing to do with the train situation. If you take a seat you know is not yours to begin with- be prepared to move if the rightful owner comes along.
Jeez, for all you know, *THIS* man just left the hospital bedside of his terminally-ill relative who he's been visiting daily, and he reserved a seat to be sure he had one. He too could be absolutely exhausted and hesrtsore, and at the end of his patience rope. This woman's carelessness and self-absorbtion, and the injustice done to that ma, are of almost legendary proportion. Lady is totally TA.
I've had to book late before and couldn't find seats all together. You know what I did? Politely asked if an attendant would be willing to assist me in finding someone willing to switch so that I could try to sit with my (at the time) 3 year old. You know what I did not do? Sit in someone else's seat and then demand it was mine. Especially not on a holiday trip. That woman not only stole money indirectly from that man but she also may have made it so he couldn't go see HIS family.
I love how OP tells her sob story expecting sympathy. Maybe the guy had his own sob story and that's why he acted like an A-hole too. I won't justify the his behaviour but OP is definitely the instigator. It's his seat, get out and speak to the staff to help arrange seating for her and her kids. There is usually someone willing to relocate to accommodate a family. If I was the one responsible there, I would have kicked them all off!
The woman felt that they were entitled and they sat in reserved seats. I'm blind in my left eye. I reserve seats where my right side in by the window..
Sorry, but you exacerbated a situation where you were already at fault. Your hoping that he wouldn't want the seat he paid for obviously didn't work, and instead of apologizing, you got offended. The train staff could just as easily helped you with the seating when you first got on. Why did you think no one else would be riding the train on a holiday?
This woman is entitled. She thinks she can do what she wants just because? Sorry lady, life doesn't work that way. Yes you are totally the a*****e and no that guy wasn't in the wrong. I hope you learned a lesson. You aren't entitled to anything and neither is anyone else. He paid it's his.
She didn’t learn anything, the train company catered to her hideously appalling entitlement. I want justice for this guy, damn it.
Load More Replies... I needed to take a long coach journey last month. I traveled out of my way so as to pick it up at the first stop so I could have choice of seat - I thought it worth the extra time and money as I have a few problems. However, when we got to what was my most natural pick up point, a woman got on with 3 kids, all too young to sit alone. I felt bad and got up, saying to the lad next to me (a stranger) if we both moved, they could sit together. Before long, on of the kids came and gave me a cup cake, to thank me, as soon as he left I offered it to woman next to me as I didn't want it. I ended up chatting with this woman and we kept in touch. Karma gave me a new friend. As for OP, she was in the wrong, lots of people have real problems. The man might have chosen that specific seat for a reason or he may have had an issue where he was mentally unable to sit anywhere except his assigned seat. People can become house bound by experience like she put him through.
The woman is a major AH and a terrible parent. You did steal the seat and then had the nerve to act entitled. People like you make the world a worse place for all of us. You should be ashamed.
Yes, she definitely took the 'my problem' is now 'your problem ' approach. Using the fact he was rude to gain moral ground is no excuse.
Yeah you are TAH. The man paid for the seats. There is no argument that can make what you did right. You manipulated the situation and not even once do i think the way you explained how you acted to the man initially when the attandant was not there is how you stated. He did not act the way he should have or else he would bot have gotten kicked off. Regardless he had money stolen from him and kicked off in a random town to be forced to buy another train ticket and wait whatever layover period he had to. I hope he sues that train company they deserve it and he should get a decent settlment offer plus the said attendant that had him removed probably will lose her job. All of this thanks to your entitled mindset. People need to understand your actions have lasting consequences that ripple thru the world around you every bad thing you do spreads more bad. Others have and will suffer from you actions.
YTA. And I don't believe that staff sided with her. Unless he seemed to exhibit dangerous behavior which I doubt, the staff will get in trouble for kicking a passenger off just because he demanded a reserved seat he paid for.
YTA...YTA...YTA... YOU ARE THE A*****E... He paid for that seat and you stole it. I would have had your a*s tossed out.
If this is to be taken at face value (I suspect that some of this was hammed up to make the OP sound like an angel) then ETA. Even if the guy was a jerk he was still right. Your children don't give you special privileges. If you need 3 seats next to each other then reserve them ahead of time like this guy did. I hate when parents think that a functioning uterus exempts them from the rules the rest of us have to live under.
I would be pissed too, if your child was in my seat THAT I PAID FOR! Also, I hope he made them reimburse him for his reserved seat! What is wrong with you -that you would take seats that say RESERVED!! Definitely YATA!! Big time! Karma will come for you one day.
The OP never indicates any concern that the man whose seat she had stolen might also have had a very bad day, be very tired, perhaps feel unwell, and HE HAD BOUGHT AND PAID FOR THAT SEAT. She is totally TA.
wtf is wrong with this person? so only what she wants matters? she even got him kicked off the train ???!!! how the f**k knows where this man was going or who he was going to see. maybe he also had a sick uncle. wtf, what a piece of trash person.
She's completely the AH. Maybe the other guy overreacted, but maybe he was also special needs, like autistic, so scheduling ahead of time a seat was very important to him, and when she ruined his routine, of course he would have been highly agitated. And she's teaching her kids to be entitled. Double AH for that.
You were both incredibly childish. Having said that you were the instigator of this and you had the responsibility to yield the seat. You took what someone else paid for that is the definition of a thief
I travel a lot by train and always make reservations for a seat. If someone is ditting in my spot and there are still free seats, I just sit in another one. But if the train is full, I politely ask to sit in the seat I have a reservation for and never had anyone argue with me. I mean, I would be upset if someone would not do it but also probably not make a fuss, if someone asks nicely for their child.
Trouble with sitting in one of the other free seats is that they are usually reserved as well. That's been my experience. I've sat there until the person who reserved it got on and then I have moved - my lack of a reserved seat (booked through work so booked out, but not home as not sure when that would be) is not their problem.
Load More Replies... What's the blather all about, here. Mother should have given way, the KAREN should have QUIETLY been compassionate and flexible and sat elsewhere. Staff was correct to eject the guy at the end, but first should have helped the family resettle when the guy first exercised his right to his reserved seat.
Staff were probably told 'he yelled at my child' and he was at this point extremely frustrated and that is all the staff saw so believed her. I don't. She says 'what was I supposed to do' as if leaving the seats wasn't an option as 'they were tired'. So what and boo-hoo. She has no idea what the man is going through, he might well be very tired himself. He might even be ill, it's not her business and he doesn't have to explain - he has reserved the seat for a reason and paid for it. She and her children are no doubt healthy otherwise she would have said so, she sounds that type. If she had moved, none of this would have happened. If you don't reserve a seat you end up separated, standing or sitting on the floor.
Load More Replies... I don't understand, did her kids have tickets, but their seats were in the different parts of the train? If so, she could just offer that man to take one of their seats instead of telling him to just pick any free seat. Or they just hopped the train with no tickets at all?
In some countries (maybe companies) you pay for the journey, not the seat. You pay extra to reserve a seat. If you have to book a journey last minute you might end up standing or on the floor - train companies rarely care. So no guarantee of a seat. Even if there are spare seats I have found they are also usually reserved so you can't take those either - not without getting moved later on in the journey. Tough if you are travelling last minute - but that's life!
Load More Replies... OP was definitely showing entitlement, but if what she said was true (NOT saying that I believe 100%, but hypothetically) then they are both being kind of a-holes. She should have realized that she was technically robbing him of his money, and (if he really was as aggressive as OP said) he should've tried to calm down a bit more. It's a public space, and surely all members involved in the interaction were tired and grumpy. What they should've done to avoid conflict was for OP to ask nicely if he could let her use the seat, and when he said no, she could've gotten up and either stood while her children sat or moved somewhere else and asked other people if they could move. She didn't deserve to have someone yell at her child (because that is a CHILD, a small emotionally unstable human who would not understand the extent of the situation), and he didn't deserve to have his seat stolen by a woman trying to argue "because of the children".
Of course, she is TA. She's an even worse AH for even considering that she was not wrong and actually going on Reddit to ask others! Wow, just WOW!!! #Karen much?
This happened to me on a flight. I reserved my window seat because it was a late flight and I wanted to sleep. While we were looking for our seat, a family took my seat and the flight attendant just told me to seat anywhere because the were late to depart. I sat on other seat and hold and behold the owner wanted his seat.
Honestly, ESH. Her entitlement was shitty, his behavior was shitty enough to get him kicked off. She shouldn't have done that especially once she realised he was looking for his seat, he shouldn't have behaved in such a way as to p**s off every passenger he was rude to.
Honestly can see from both sides. OP Honestly, they couldn't book in time as they had to wait to make sure they were negative for covid, so they didn't get their family member who had cancer sick. And maybe there were no seats for all of them to be with each other when they boarded the train? "Fairly empty" may mean people had taken seats that they would have sat at if they could sit together. When traveling with a 6yr old and a 4yr old, YOU need to have them by you in this crazy world. Yes, I understand the guy paid for those seats, but maybe he could have helped them get others to move and help them move instead of yelling at them. Either way, both parties are at fault, I feel.
Finally, a comment with some empathy. A thousand percent agree.
Load More Replies... Not picking sides on this one. Both sides have a good argument and it's sounding like while there are other seats empty, not are 3 together. It takes a special kind of jerk to demand a child move somewhere else and the expect a parent not sit with young children. I've actually been in this exact scenario thanks to an overbooked flight. Other passengers were at least nice enough to be sure their mothers sat with our kids while I ended up sandwiched in a center seat while I had a reserved window seat. I took it and life goes on. It would've been great to see the conductor take the 3some to a more expensive seat to accommodate the jerk
You never know if the owner of the seat that you are stealing is a psycho-killer. Thieves beware. God is watching.
Both parties were wrong. The man was probably exhausted but still didn't give him the right to act so demanding and belligerent. The woman should have asked the man, like hey, is it alright if we could stay here? Especially if there were other seats that were still available of equal leg room, or whatever. I would keep my one kid on my lap and give the man his seat back just because it was his and in this crazy world of child abductions I wouldn't let my kid out of my sight. COVID also has made everything stinky in that she couldn't really book ahead of time until she knew for sure she didn't have it. So all the people saying she should have reserved sooner didn't read all the way through. Her uncle has cancer and shouldn't be exposed to it. It's a hard situation all the way around. It's something that both parties could have resolved. Unfortunately due to all things Covid people have gotten exhausted and stretched to the max, causing us to act more crabby and entitled.
I don't agree. I don't think it's a grey area. Now if it was really a 4 seater and they were only taking up 3 then yes she should have moved her daughter. Now OP said her children are 7 and 4. I would be terrified not to sit with my kids. Especially on a long train ride and especially with them at that age. She repeatedly states that there weren't any seats that were by each other that the other seats were sporadically placed around. I have never been on a train and only a plane once so maybe I just don't understand the etiquette that much. He didn't ask her daughter to move. He told her and rather rudely at that. I'm gonna tell you now, if you tell my child to do something rudely instead of asking me to ask my daughter to move, I'm gonna do the same damn thing and I'm gonna start hollering over that man harassing my child. He obviously doesn't understand how to talk to a child, one that has no relation to him. Imo they were both assholes but her less so
I’m gonna say NTA cause you booked these tickets at the last minute and didn’t have time for the reservation and there where plenty of available seats open. You all are traveling the same direction and this man was going up and down looking for his seat and a 7 girl is not tall enough to obscure the seat number on the headrest. The man was being a douche bag by his attitude and actions and for all those who are calling this lady trying to get to a family member who has CANCER an AH then you obviously don’t have a family member who’s got Cancer and would know what that strains that puts on a family. And for others, READ the article fully before you say something and pass judgment. BTW, the man reserved a seat means that no matter what or how full the compartment gets, he is guaranteed a seat. And each train compartment has only so many seats in each car
If it had a reserved sign on it then yes he paid extra. It doesnt matter why, but it is a much higher price to reserve a specific seat.
Load More Replies... I don't think he should have yelled at that child but at the same time he bought that ticket and he paid for it and he was allowed to sit there so if the mom had any ounce of balls she wouldn't just moved
Load More Replies... The mother could have left him with her children... That would have been a disaster for him!
Load More Replies... I'm skeptical about what the AH said about the train employee. I view this as no different from seating on some airplanes. You pay extra for a reserved seat so you can sit in it, not as a gift to some Karen. I know any flight attendant would do the right thing and ask you to move. Are train employees so different?
Load More Replies... reserving seats in the uk usually means you pay extra. the way this post is written sounds like a lot of things about the mans behaviour could be made up. sit down.
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