Company Threatens To Fire Employee If She Continues To Ignore Team Gatherings After Work, Sparks Debate On Work Culture
Some employees want to draw a clear distinction between their work and free time. TikTok user Sarah, who goes on the platform as @moodynomad333 is one of these people. But her views got her in big trouble at the last company she worked for.
In a now-viral video, the woman detailed her experience of working in the marketing department of an architecture firm. She focused on keeping strictly professional relationships with her co-workers.
“All the architects and designers would hang out, and I didn’t want to hang out with them because we didn’t have anything in common. Plus, they were all friends from school or from doing the same job, and I was just an outsider,” she said.
However, the higher-ups didn’t like this. In fact, their view of how the office should operate was so different from Sarah’s that, eventually, they issued an ultimatum: either socialize with your co-workers or get fired.
Seeing it as an impossible lose-lose choice, Sarah simply packed her things and resigned.
A TikToker says she recently received an ultimatum at work to either socialize with her co-workers or be fired
Image credits: fauxels (not the actual photo)
So she quit
Image credits: moodynomad333
Image credits: moodynomad333
Her video went viral, having been viewed more than 775K times
@moodynomad333 #stitch with @Emily The Recruiter ♬ original sound – sarah
This is a very nuanced topic. Many business advisors think it’s actually in the best interest of both the company and its employees that they get familiar with one another. For example, according to Scott Ford, President of California Builder Services, a single-source consulting firm specializing in DRE Reports, HOA Budgets, and Reserve Studies, before 2020, questions such as, “What did you do this weekend?” and other small talk helped us learn more about our colleagues while we waited for our first cup of coffee to brew or gathered before a meeting. “From trivial topics to silly banter, these non-work discussions helped many of us feel bonded and connected with our colleagues throughout the workplace,” he wrote in Forbes.
But since the pandemic, small talk has also migrated to email and various communication platforms.
However, Ford believes leaders must put forth the extra effort to ensure staff relationships retain the spontaneity and free flow of in-person interactions as much as possible. “From my perspective, allowing staff time to chat with one another and/or organizing opportunities for after-hour connections can result in a happier, more collaborative team,” he said.
And supporters of this view have research to back it up. Turns out, small talk plays a significant role in our productivity at work. Last year, the Academy of Management found that casual banter in the office can be uplifting.
“I find it can also foster a sense of connection among co-workers,” Ford added. “These connections are essential to effective teamwork and can help build loyalty with the company and peers.”
And has started a heated discussion on work relationships
However, just how much management should get involved in promoting employee socialization is debatable.
Russell F. Korte, a professor of human resource education in the College of Education at Illinois, thinks that rather than placing the onus of assimilating to a new work environment on the new hire, it’s their co-workers who should bring the newcomer on board and ease their transition to the team.
“There’s a huge burden on the workgroup for the socialization and ultimate success of the new hire,” Korte said.
“Everybody thinks it’s the responsibility of the new person to fit in when it’s actually a mutually-constituted relationship between the workgroup and the new hire.”
Korte’s study, published in recent issues of the journals Human Resource Development International and Human Resource Development Quarterly, comprised in-depth interviews with members of the engineering workforce, including managers, of a large multinational manufacturing company.
Korte discovered that co-workers exert far more influence on a new hire’s socialization in an organization than previously thought: About 65 percent of what employees learn comes from their co-workers, while just 15 percent comes from interactions with managers.
“Co-workers are major players in socializing a new employee,” he explained. “I think it’s important that managers realize the power that the workgroup has to make or break the new hire coming in because if people have bad experiences, they’ll likely leave.”
Which is exactly what happened in Sarah’s case. Thankfully, it looks like she isn’t double-questioning her decision and maintains a positive attitude.
Its creator, Sarah, provided more info on her situation in a follow-up video
Image credits: moodynomad333
Image credits: moodynomad333
That also received plenty of attention
@moodynomad333 Replying to @MRD ♬ original sound – sarah
Sarah also pointed out the difference in office standards that men and women are held to
@moodynomad333 Replying to @slaytanic ♬ original sound – sarah
Many supported her opinions
But some stressed that socializing is a big part of work culture
Uhhhh I hate this sort of thing where you have to fit a role on a personal level as well as professional. I got a verbal warning for not smiling enough in a non customer facing role, where my manager could only see my face when I was at my computer. I quit a week later.
Yeah, that smiling because other people think you should has to be one of the most irritating things ever. Lots of people think it's horrible for a man to yell that to a woman while she's walking down the street; but it's perfectly acceptable to say it to her day after day at work.
I was wiping down tables one day no customers, employee walks by smile Jo hello dirty table how are you !
"you should smile more" is another way of saying "I'm from the past"
Good choice. That's a crock
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Gee, maybe a professional level job is not for you. I mean at a certain level of professional socializing is essential. At the end of the day, socializing is an essential and important skill - one of the most important. And this is coming from a hermit.
The fact you're here spamming like crazuy, you're not a hermit. A real hermit: one that retires from society and lives in solitude
Maybe interacting with people isn't for you, Karen, since all you're doing is being a patronizing arsehole. If you can't handle me not pasting a fake grin on my face while I'm trying to pay attention to the actual content of a conversation, the problem isn't ME, it's YOU.
Skipping "happy hours" is fine, especially if they occur rather often. But dashing in with headphones on not even saying hello and howdy is just rude. And I say this as someone who hates small talk.
You need to reread the entire article. Yes she takes her headphones in. However she also takes notice of who she passes, acknowledging them and saying hello. She simply doesn't stop to chit chat.
Apparently you need to reread the article - "So every day i would walk in with my headphones, walk straight past reception, give her a little wave, would never stop to talk and go straight to my desk and start working" So, she takes notice of the receptionist just enough to wave, and does NOT say hello, which means she barely acknowledges them, and makes a beeline for her desk to start working, heavily implying she avoids interacting with anyone else after waving to the receptionist. Just the fact that she walks in with her headphones on is a big deterrent to even greeting people, as most people won't "interrupt" someone who is currently listening to something on their headphones. It's a tactic to push away social interaction at its most basic level.
she only waved at the receptionist, no verbal acknowledgment. A simple hi or hello would do; walking in with headphones and just a wave makes for a very unfriendly standoffish attitude. The real question is, how does she do her marketing work without interacting with the others in the office?? Is she able to "market" their architectural services without even knowing what projects they are doing or have done??
She says in her article that she speaks to whom she needs to speak with.
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"She says in her article that she speaks to whom she needs to speak with." More like who OP deems that she needs to speak with, and only those people. Obviously the receptionist is not one of the people she 'needs' to speak with. How do you think that's perceived by the receptionist? OP also said that "All the architects and designers would hang out, and I didn’t want to hang out with them because we didn’t have anything in common. Plus, they were all friends from school or from doing the same job, and I was just an outsider," This is the person working in the marketing department of an architectural firm, whose sole product is the services provided by those architects, and she doesn't want to interact with those architects?? How do you think that's perceived by the architects, who are the be all and end all of that business? Possibly as a snobby b****? Is she making the office uncomfortable for others?
That makes a difference how?
As someone in that industry, to sell the work they do you are selling them. If you don't understand or know your people your advertising and marketing comes off extremely impersonal and typically cliche or fake.
Wrong. She only gave a wave; never spoke.
So? If she scowled and flipped the receptionist the bird every morning I’d see your point, but a wave or even a nod is a hello in my book!
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I agree. That's just rude and makes her look snobby. I'm a little bit over all these people claiming that they are introverts and therefore shouldn't be expected to even look at another person on anything other then their terms.
Why does it bother you so much that someone isn't talking to you? Serious question. This isn't middle school, you're not in a fight and no one is trying to take your best friend away.
You do realize that alot of us don't talk to people at all unless we have a good reason for the conversation right? I'd suggest minding your own business.
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I suggest learning how to be nice. It's not hard to learn something new.
I've met lots of people. At this point I know I don't want to meet any more of them. Thanks though.
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She was working in marketing at an architecture firm: the job is 90% socializing
Therefore, socializing is work to her, and she looks forward to using her no -work time to unwind alone or spend time with people she actually WANTS to spend time with. It’s HER free time, not yours, so let her do whatever she wants with it. Quit being so controlling.
With external clients to sell a product, not internal coworkers, who do not need to be marketed to. Unless you think the arcitects should be obligated to purchase from theit employers a product they can produce for thrmselves in their dwindling free time??
Darlin' you need to get over yourself. The only one being rude and snobbish, is you, dictating what others have to do (or not do) for you to feel comfortable
What??? When/where did she mention (dictate) anything about expectations of what others have to do (or not do) so that she feels comfortable??? That’s kind of the whole point for her, in fact, she just wants to do her job and go home. I mean, the irony in this comment lol…can you not see it? The only ones dictating anything is the company that is insisting that she hang out with coworkers outside of work or be fired. Why??? To make her coworkers feel “comfortable.?”
It is also a strong characteristic of someone with social anxiety, so you're basically saying it's rude for me to exist. If I smile and wave to you and don't say anything, it's because I'm EFFING TERRIFIED of you, and it's WAY more rude to terrorize your coworkers than it is to not speak. Not everyone is LIKE you, Karen.
Bottom line, threatening to fire somebody because they don't socialise if just horrific. I can't blame her for quitting or going to tribunal (if she lives somewhere you have employment rights). Personally I don't mind if people don't want to socialise outside work. Your time is your own, as are your reasons for not socialising. Saying that, marketing is one of those professions where a bit of socialising comes with the territory. I would never suggest having a personal "no work socialising" rule. It's quite presumptive about your colleagues as individuals and you do gain insights into them and their work. You might even find you've actually got things in common with them. Equally if you've tried it and they're awful, there's no shame in not socialising with them.
I feel like marketing is just a really terrible industry to go into if you hate socialising and are an introvert
Her job didn't require her to work with customers. She said she did a lot of writing and got a lot more work done because she wasn't taking small talk breaks. The job sounds like a good fit for her talents, it was management that thought she should be doing more than her job description.
In order to properly work in marketing it requires an intimate knowledge of clients, people, tends, pop culture, etc. You need to be able to relate to people to market to them.
In order to properly work, all marketing need is data. I can pull up data on how people buy, how people sell, how they behave without interacting with a single person involved in the data and make a good plan on how to manipulate them into buying my companies' services that I pass onto the department that handles that.
She explicitly said HER marketing position didn't involve all of that and was mostly writing articles. Are you mansplaining her job position to us after she already explained it?
Not wasting your workday on mindless chattering or wasting your free time getting drunk with your coworkers doesn’t mean you can’t relate to people, it means you value your own time
Marketing for an architecture firm is totally different from marketing a product. Your job is to put together documents that sell the workers at your company to the group that needs their services. The product is the people.
This comment section is full of people boldly defining what a marketing job is, who have clearly never worked in marketing. Socializing is not part of the job at all. It's creating and analyzing spreadsheets, meetings, and content creation. I think people are somehow conflating "Marketing" with "project management".
Marketing is mostly analysis of data and writing. Like looking at spreadsheets, doing math, interpreting data to figure out why a campaign was or was not successful. It's not really a "socializing" type of job. You may be thinking of promotion.
Totally agree!
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It really is not for introverts. It's a aggressive, extroverted field by its nature.
Gladys, you're thinking of sales, not marketing.
Marketing is not by its nature an extroverted field. Its nature is for manipulators, but you don't have to be extroverted to be a manipulator.
I disagree. Get fired for not going to after work events unpaid and see what the labour board say about it
Yeah, from the tenor of her remarks I'd say there was a fair bit more to it that that.
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She was working in a MARKETING department in an architecture firm.... Her job is literally 90% socializing and getting to know your clients
External clients, not internal. And forcing someond to have unpaid meeting is just exactly that - squeezing more out of employees for less. If they want employees to socialize, facilitate it with extended paid lunch hours.
If she's salaried, which she probably is, it's expected you work whatever hours it is needed to get the job done. As for work lunch meetings, it's very common when working on projects. The company pays for them. I use to go to business dinners paid for by the company. This is a common practice in business. It appears most people on this thread are not use to working in larger organizations on large projects across multiple departments & even regional offices. This was common to me
To you.
That's blatantly untrue; you're describing a Salesperson. A marketing job will involve indirect analysis of target demographics, but they absolute don't socialize with clients.
Seth you would be correct if she was at a marketing firm, but this role at an architecture firm typically also facilitates sales. They are marketing people to other people.
Uhhhh I hate this sort of thing where you have to fit a role on a personal level as well as professional. I got a verbal warning for not smiling enough in a non customer facing role, where my manager could only see my face when I was at my computer. I quit a week later.
Yeah, that smiling because other people think you should has to be one of the most irritating things ever. Lots of people think it's horrible for a man to yell that to a woman while she's walking down the street; but it's perfectly acceptable to say it to her day after day at work.
I was wiping down tables one day no customers, employee walks by smile Jo hello dirty table how are you !
"you should smile more" is another way of saying "I'm from the past"
Good choice. That's a crock
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
Gee, maybe a professional level job is not for you. I mean at a certain level of professional socializing is essential. At the end of the day, socializing is an essential and important skill - one of the most important. And this is coming from a hermit.
The fact you're here spamming like crazuy, you're not a hermit. A real hermit: one that retires from society and lives in solitude
Maybe interacting with people isn't for you, Karen, since all you're doing is being a patronizing arsehole. If you can't handle me not pasting a fake grin on my face while I'm trying to pay attention to the actual content of a conversation, the problem isn't ME, it's YOU.
Skipping "happy hours" is fine, especially if they occur rather often. But dashing in with headphones on not even saying hello and howdy is just rude. And I say this as someone who hates small talk.
You need to reread the entire article. Yes she takes her headphones in. However she also takes notice of who she passes, acknowledging them and saying hello. She simply doesn't stop to chit chat.
Apparently you need to reread the article - "So every day i would walk in with my headphones, walk straight past reception, give her a little wave, would never stop to talk and go straight to my desk and start working" So, she takes notice of the receptionist just enough to wave, and does NOT say hello, which means she barely acknowledges them, and makes a beeline for her desk to start working, heavily implying she avoids interacting with anyone else after waving to the receptionist. Just the fact that she walks in with her headphones on is a big deterrent to even greeting people, as most people won't "interrupt" someone who is currently listening to something on their headphones. It's a tactic to push away social interaction at its most basic level.
she only waved at the receptionist, no verbal acknowledgment. A simple hi or hello would do; walking in with headphones and just a wave makes for a very unfriendly standoffish attitude. The real question is, how does she do her marketing work without interacting with the others in the office?? Is she able to "market" their architectural services without even knowing what projects they are doing or have done??
She says in her article that she speaks to whom she needs to speak with.
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
"She says in her article that she speaks to whom she needs to speak with." More like who OP deems that she needs to speak with, and only those people. Obviously the receptionist is not one of the people she 'needs' to speak with. How do you think that's perceived by the receptionist? OP also said that "All the architects and designers would hang out, and I didn’t want to hang out with them because we didn’t have anything in common. Plus, they were all friends from school or from doing the same job, and I was just an outsider," This is the person working in the marketing department of an architectural firm, whose sole product is the services provided by those architects, and she doesn't want to interact with those architects?? How do you think that's perceived by the architects, who are the be all and end all of that business? Possibly as a snobby b****? Is she making the office uncomfortable for others?
That makes a difference how?
As someone in that industry, to sell the work they do you are selling them. If you don't understand or know your people your advertising and marketing comes off extremely impersonal and typically cliche or fake.
Wrong. She only gave a wave; never spoke.
So? If she scowled and flipped the receptionist the bird every morning I’d see your point, but a wave or even a nod is a hello in my book!
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I agree. That's just rude and makes her look snobby. I'm a little bit over all these people claiming that they are introverts and therefore shouldn't be expected to even look at another person on anything other then their terms.
Why does it bother you so much that someone isn't talking to you? Serious question. This isn't middle school, you're not in a fight and no one is trying to take your best friend away.
You do realize that alot of us don't talk to people at all unless we have a good reason for the conversation right? I'd suggest minding your own business.
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I suggest learning how to be nice. It's not hard to learn something new.
I've met lots of people. At this point I know I don't want to meet any more of them. Thanks though.
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She was working in marketing at an architecture firm: the job is 90% socializing
Therefore, socializing is work to her, and she looks forward to using her no -work time to unwind alone or spend time with people she actually WANTS to spend time with. It’s HER free time, not yours, so let her do whatever she wants with it. Quit being so controlling.
With external clients to sell a product, not internal coworkers, who do not need to be marketed to. Unless you think the arcitects should be obligated to purchase from theit employers a product they can produce for thrmselves in their dwindling free time??
Darlin' you need to get over yourself. The only one being rude and snobbish, is you, dictating what others have to do (or not do) for you to feel comfortable
What??? When/where did she mention (dictate) anything about expectations of what others have to do (or not do) so that she feels comfortable??? That’s kind of the whole point for her, in fact, she just wants to do her job and go home. I mean, the irony in this comment lol…can you not see it? The only ones dictating anything is the company that is insisting that she hang out with coworkers outside of work or be fired. Why??? To make her coworkers feel “comfortable.?”
It is also a strong characteristic of someone with social anxiety, so you're basically saying it's rude for me to exist. If I smile and wave to you and don't say anything, it's because I'm EFFING TERRIFIED of you, and it's WAY more rude to terrorize your coworkers than it is to not speak. Not everyone is LIKE you, Karen.
Bottom line, threatening to fire somebody because they don't socialise if just horrific. I can't blame her for quitting or going to tribunal (if she lives somewhere you have employment rights). Personally I don't mind if people don't want to socialise outside work. Your time is your own, as are your reasons for not socialising. Saying that, marketing is one of those professions where a bit of socialising comes with the territory. I would never suggest having a personal "no work socialising" rule. It's quite presumptive about your colleagues as individuals and you do gain insights into them and their work. You might even find you've actually got things in common with them. Equally if you've tried it and they're awful, there's no shame in not socialising with them.
I feel like marketing is just a really terrible industry to go into if you hate socialising and are an introvert
Her job didn't require her to work with customers. She said she did a lot of writing and got a lot more work done because she wasn't taking small talk breaks. The job sounds like a good fit for her talents, it was management that thought she should be doing more than her job description.
In order to properly work in marketing it requires an intimate knowledge of clients, people, tends, pop culture, etc. You need to be able to relate to people to market to them.
In order to properly work, all marketing need is data. I can pull up data on how people buy, how people sell, how they behave without interacting with a single person involved in the data and make a good plan on how to manipulate them into buying my companies' services that I pass onto the department that handles that.
She explicitly said HER marketing position didn't involve all of that and was mostly writing articles. Are you mansplaining her job position to us after she already explained it?
Not wasting your workday on mindless chattering or wasting your free time getting drunk with your coworkers doesn’t mean you can’t relate to people, it means you value your own time
Marketing for an architecture firm is totally different from marketing a product. Your job is to put together documents that sell the workers at your company to the group that needs their services. The product is the people.
This comment section is full of people boldly defining what a marketing job is, who have clearly never worked in marketing. Socializing is not part of the job at all. It's creating and analyzing spreadsheets, meetings, and content creation. I think people are somehow conflating "Marketing" with "project management".
Marketing is mostly analysis of data and writing. Like looking at spreadsheets, doing math, interpreting data to figure out why a campaign was or was not successful. It's not really a "socializing" type of job. You may be thinking of promotion.
Totally agree!
This comment is hidden. Click here to view.
It really is not for introverts. It's a aggressive, extroverted field by its nature.
Gladys, you're thinking of sales, not marketing.
Marketing is not by its nature an extroverted field. Its nature is for manipulators, but you don't have to be extroverted to be a manipulator.
I disagree. Get fired for not going to after work events unpaid and see what the labour board say about it
Yeah, from the tenor of her remarks I'd say there was a fair bit more to it that that.
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She was working in a MARKETING department in an architecture firm.... Her job is literally 90% socializing and getting to know your clients
External clients, not internal. And forcing someond to have unpaid meeting is just exactly that - squeezing more out of employees for less. If they want employees to socialize, facilitate it with extended paid lunch hours.
If she's salaried, which she probably is, it's expected you work whatever hours it is needed to get the job done. As for work lunch meetings, it's very common when working on projects. The company pays for them. I use to go to business dinners paid for by the company. This is a common practice in business. It appears most people on this thread are not use to working in larger organizations on large projects across multiple departments & even regional offices. This was common to me
To you.
That's blatantly untrue; you're describing a Salesperson. A marketing job will involve indirect analysis of target demographics, but they absolute don't socialize with clients.
Seth you would be correct if she was at a marketing firm, but this role at an architecture firm typically also facilitates sales. They are marketing people to other people.