Recently Promoted Employee Takes A Day-Off Without Telling Anyone, Boss Makes Her Choose Between Demotion Or Termination
InterviewWe know very well that keeping up with our responsibilities at work is really the bare minimum to maintain the position. Often, we have to do much extra and prove ourselves time and again to climb up that career ladder. But while everything looks relatively easy on paper, in reality, things get way more complicated.
So this time, we’re diving into a work drama that started when one employee failed to show up to work after recently being promoted to manager. “I really thought she could handle the responsibility,” wrote the author of the post on the r/AITA subreddit, a small business owner who owns a vape shop.
When the owner finally managed to get hold of the missing employee referred to as Peggy and asked if she was okay, she said she needed to “take a mental health day and do some self-care.” Meanwhile, the rest of the employees and confused customers were left on ice, standing outside, unsure what to do with the shop closed past its opening time.
So let’s see how the incident evolved and what came out of it. Make sure to read our interview with the owner and author of the post below to get his take on the whole story!
The recently promoted employee fails to show up to work and open the store without warning anyone, says she’s had to take a mental health day later
Image credits: fizkes (not the actual photo)
So the owner told her to choose between demotion and termination, and shared the whole incident in this post on r/AITA
Bored Panda reached out to the vape store owner whose employee Peggy took a day off without warning anyone to find out his take on this whole incident. “I’m very happy with the way things worked out. I got what I wanted, and so did Peggy. I call this one a win/win,” the owner said referring to the incident.
In an update post, the author wrote that he and Peggy met for lunch, talked everything through, and apologized to each other. “I accepted her apology, and offered one of my own. Both for giving her too much responsibility too quickly, and also for reacting out of emotion,” the owner wrote.
“She explained to me that she had a major issue on Monday, and without getting into too much detail, I’ll just say that it was the anniversary of a bad thing,” he commented on the reason why Peggy didn’t show up. Now, she’s taking all of her accumulated PTO, and the two agreed “that going forward, I’m not going to put her on the schedule on that day ever again.”
According to the update, Peggy also admitted that she’s not up to the role of manager. “When she returns, she will be in the role of lead cashier, a role I created specifically for her,” the owner said and added: “This way she can keep her raise, and not feel like she got a ‘demotion,’ but rather a lateral transfer. I’ve also let her know that if she ever feels like she’s up to more responsibility, she can let me know, and I’ll put her right back on track for the manager spot.”
When asked whether they’d had incidents like this in the past, the owner said that there have been a few problems with employees. “One guy nodded out from doing heroin in the bathroom. We also had to fire a girl for stealing once,” he recounted. “Overall, I don’t think that ALL issues with employees can be avoided, but I do believe that with competent leadership, they can be minimized, and the company can recover quickly,” the owner told us.
And for those employees who don’t feel comfortable stepping up and telling their bosses and managers they’re struggling with mental health, the author of the post said that he’d tell them that “they know their boss better than I do. Some bosses are approachable, and unfortunately some are not. If you don’t feel comfortable talking to your boss, then you might want to look for a better boss. The job market is heavily favoring employees at the moment.”
The business owner concluded on a positive note: “The power is in the hands of the people more than it has been in decades. The time for change is upon us. The time for workers to stand up for their rights has come!”
And this is what people had to comment on this whole situation
No matter from which side you look at this situation, the boss had every right to fire her on the spot for not showing up without any notice. It's nice that he took responsibility for saying that he made a mistake by promoting her to manager, but in the end it was her choice to take her day of without letting her boss know.
agreed. Actually she didn‘t even take the day off. She didn‘t appear without any excuse. Plus, she had her fellow employees locked out. I would fire her right away.
Load More Replies...I cannot stand people who abuse mental health needs like this. It's manipulation. I don't believe her excuse. Just like with any illness it's your responsibility to call in.
Even if it was completely legit and she literally couldn't call because of a mental health crisis, it still makes you unreliable. I'm speaking from having those kinds of crisis. You aren't able to be responsible. It sucks but that's the way it is.
Load More Replies...No, the owner is not the A-hole. Period. If it has to be explained why he isn't, then the person who needs the explanation has not entered Adult World yet. And he was more than tolerant. Most would have canned her immediately.
Interestingly, she had no mental health crises during the two years she worked as a cashier, but suddenly had one after being promoted? To the extent that she couldn't pick up the phone and call her boss? Sounds like BS to me, and I have both depression and anxiety.
Load More Replies...As somebody with severe anxiety who has had to call in because I couldn't get out of bed, she should have called in. NTA. If she had the spoons to "do some self-care" she could have sent a freaking text. She's using legitimate medical issues and explanatory terms to justify her irresponsible behavior, making her double the AH: to the business owner and to other people with mental health issues.
Nope NTA. I have sacked people like her before. If I cannot trust you to pickup the phone then I certainly cannot trust you to do a job that keep the business alive. A business that keeps 13 people, including you and me, from starving and out in the streets.
"2 years as a solid employee" with fine mental health, my money is on a night out to celebrate the promotion and feeling rough the next day, but happy to play the "mental health" card because she thinks it won't be questioned
The owner posted an update to this post. She has had something incredibly traumatic happen to her that day 9 years ago, that left her unable to function on that day, if I remember correctly. She was definitely not out in the town, though
Load More Replies...I think his original offer was a generous one. The fact is, if this is an anniversary, then she KNEW the day was coming up and could easily have said something before it actually happened. And even if you are just having a really bad day, it does NOT take spoons to send a very short text saying "Sorry, can't come in today" before opening time. I would not have let her stay. Guarantee it won't be the last time she screws him over.
Exactly, she KNEW about it. But I'm just curious: did she have a meltdown on this date for two years before or is this somehow just affecting her this year? I call total BS on this one, she should have been fired.
Load More Replies...NTA. I'm a hotel GM and that's considered a no call no show, which is cause for immediate termination.
Fire her. Her reaction on the phone is what prevents her from just getting the demotion. Go through the call off policies and such as she is in management and that be the grounds for termination. Her mental health is her responsibility to manage, as well as her life which includes management of her own mental health. Frankly I wouldn't have put in in a management position without having her do the role for a few weeks to see if she really is a good candidate for the position.
I agree. Is the employer going to tip toe around her all the time now? And fit the schedule around her (which he kind of did in the end)? What kind of example does this set for the other employees? I'm sorry but by not firing her he's making all of them a big injustice.
Load More Replies...To be blunt, the fact that he wonders whether he's the Ahole, tells me that he probably lets employees walk all over him. But that's my opinion.
I think it shows that the boss is very considerate and understanding of the needs of their employees. It would be nice if more bosses were like that
Load More Replies...IMO the boss is far far too lenient. He basically rewarded her for being irresponsible: less responsibility + get to keep her pay raise. Self-care is important but not at the expense of other people. Thats called self-centred.
It says, very specifically, that her options were termination or going back to her old position with her OLD PAY. She doesn't keep the raise.
Load More Replies...There was an update on this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/onxses/aita_for_telling_an_employee_she_can_choose/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
NTA. I've been in management most of my life and I've made bad promotions before. Yes, there are other factors and communication after a NCNS that can save that employees job. I work with everyone because I know all of my people have lives outside of work, issues, and ya know they're human. Communication is the key. I'm going to read the update I found in the comments.
NTA. I actually no showed a bartending job because of an anxiety attack early 20s. I lived at home and checked into a hotel and read books for two days. I agreed to be fired, I wasn't the manager but they knew my situation and were very nice. I had been a great employee and ever called off. The owner actually hired me back a couple years later and I managed one of the stores. Second chances are wonderful but they had a business to run.
initial thoughts before update, no call no show = termination. after update, very good communication skills on the owner's part, if employee was good enough to promote they were valuable enough to keep, just not in that role.
I'm glad SOMEONE here recognized that this problem is probably because of circumstances - had anyone spoken to a medical health professional (and my Sister's one) this mental disease. We both caught it immediately after the "spoons" comment. What she needs a therapist, not twenty-eleven others yelling at her. Place her in a position less unwieldy and she'll do much better
The spoon simily is from an explanation about chronic fatigue. She really should not be manager if she is this fragile. Demoting her is a reasonable course of action, but from her reaction the owner might have to fire her.
I agree with the store owner. No way she should have done that. But, is there a slim chance she's not being honest? Perhaps the real reason she was absent was something she didn't want to talk about, like an abusive partner. I once worked with a young woman who was late one day and showed up in bare feet!! The abusive uncle she lived with destroyed her shoes during the night. He would also lock in in rooms for days on end, throw her car keys away, it was crazy and he apparently had custody of her until she was 18.
I think at the very most under these circumstances he should have allowed her the opportunity to explain herself, which he did , and she failed to be convincing. Beyond that, whether you think he's an asshole or not, he's the owner of the shop and ultimately it's up to him to do what he thinks is best to protect it. And i have a hard time saying that because, well it is a VAPE shop. ICK!
She posted an update yesterday. Employee asked to talk and apologized. Employer apologized for promoting her beyond her ability and made a new position for her that she could handle with the option to let her know if she's ever ready to take on management. Good communication wins again.
We as a society have created this problem of "i dont feel like it" in the workplace. Strong/good work-ethic is a rarity unfortunately. NTA. I would have fired her on the phone and been done with it. Someone more deserving would be able to assume her role.
We as a society have created this problem of pitting employees against each other in the workplace. That's why nobody dares ring in sick anymore in case they get fired. This isn't about work ethics. It's about being human and kind and compassionate, recognising each person's unique contribution (even if they're sometimes ill or make mistakes) instead of pitting everyone against each other.
Load More Replies...As someone who has the issue that the employee has, he is still NTA. Yes, it is possible to be so far gone to mental health issues that you wake up one day incapable of managing even a simple phone call. It is also possible she's toxic and taking advantage. But *even* if we assume she is 100% legit, someone with those issues cannot be counted on to be opening the store and so should not be a manager.
“I didn’t have the spoons for that” can someone please tell me what does that mean? Is it minutes on her phone? I’m lost but aside he’s NTA
Spoons is something people with disabilities use to indicate that everything costs energy and how much they have left. Having no more spoons means they have no more energy left. Not to be confused with being tired, because being out of spoons is so much worse than that
Load More Replies...Fire Peggy. She is basically abusing her position because she thinks you recognize her as indispensable and won’t take the risk of losing your business with her not working there. Time to prove her wrong and tell her she is taking the pists
As someone with mental health issues, Peggy is absolutely in the wrong. I've needed sudden mental health days, but even when I'm having a breakdown on the bathroom floor, I acknowledge the rest of the world goes on outside of me, my workplace needs to know I won't be there. Call. If you can't call, text. If you can't text work, get a family member to do so in your stead. Peggy has no right to call her boss names, they are already being far more accommodating then most places would be.
My opinion....he was right, she was wrong. She wanted to see what she could get away with!
You have to make reasonable accommodations for someone to work when they have an illness or disability - such as allowing mental health days. This is not even close to falling under that. If she gets so bad that even sending a text, or asking someone else to call, to let them know that they need to cover for her is physically impossible? There are only two ways to accommodate that: - have two managers both showing up to open each morning to open, on the offchance the main employee is a no show - just accept that on some random days, your store won't open, you'll lose business, and other employees won't be able to work (so casual staff at the very least won't be paid) The first one is pointless, and the second is absurd. If she's being truthful, then her mental health prevents her from doing one of the basic tasks of the manager job, and there are no reasonable accommodations that could be made to work around it. Legally the boss can demote her.
Even in the absolute depth of my major depressive episode, where I could barely even eat or sleep, I would have taken the 2 minutes to call into work to tell them I wouldn't be there. Mental Health is a big deal, but you still have an obligation to other people, to atleast be able to work around you.
I have mental health issues myself and I know that I couldn't cope with a managerial position. She may have been quite comfortable in her old position and able to do a great job but not be able to cope with the extra responsibility. I can't believe she wouldn't have known that when she was offered the position and say to her boss she had a mental health issue and couldn't cope with that.
Give her all the time and fresh air out there for good. It'll vent it all out. A relative of mine once had a bad time trying to land a job (no skills and after a gap year she had enjoyed after school). No one wants me, she said after some interviews- then explained she's got used to waking up at 10 am and working hours wouldn't fit it. Plus, fitness time three times a week (during the day, of course). Baad employers, shitty offers she said...
As an employee, I'd expect to get my ass fired if I didn't bother to call in and just not show up.
I have mental health issues like depression and anxiety. If I have to take time off I have always fulfilled my obligation to my employers to inform them before my shift started that I wouldn't be turning up to work. If I didn't have enough spoons in my drawer for that (I'd urge this manager to look up 'spoon theory' which will help explain what that means), I'd make sure I'd ask a family member to call in for me. This Peggy is using mental health as an excuse not to be responsible for her position.
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT saying Peggy was in the right, here, or that the owner shouldn't have taken action. He definitely did what he should have. And I think letting her keep her raise was very generous of him, and I applaud him for that. I just wanted to point out that, here in the US, most employers, unfortunately, look very unkindly on the concept of "mental health days". If you call out, almost every employer out there will demand a doctor's note, and threaten disciplinary action if you don't get one. This is bad enough when an employee feels bad enough to stay home, but it isn't b/c of something a doctor can help with, like severe menstrual cramps, a strained muscle (all you can really do is rest), or a cold (there's no medicine they can give you, all you can do is treat the symptoms with OTC meds and, again, rest). So you have to waste a doctor's time, especially during Covid, and put yourself at risk of picking up a worse germ, from their office. Or, if it's a cold, you have to go to work sick, and spread it to others. Add to this that a ton of minimum wage jobs offer no benefits, or benefits too expensive to maintain, but pay just enough to disqualify the employee from medicaid. Which means to go to the doctor, you have to pay out of pocket, which nobody can afford, or go to the ER, and waste time there that could go to MUCH sicker people. Or, you could just not get a doctor's note, and end up with a write-up, and a black mark on your record. Most employers require drs notes for ANY special allowances-hell, they won't even let you put a chair in front of the cash register without that slip of paper. They'd rather you stand in one place for 9 hours straight, and destroy your feet and back. And most drs won't even see you for a mental crisis-they'll refer you to some shrink that takes months to get into. Mental illness, is, sadly seen as a weakness, in the workplace. Oh, they can't outwardly discriminate, of course. But they'll find their reasons, and their ways. This only exacerbates the problem. Sometimes, it's a struggle just to get out of bed. But employers don't care. So I can see why Peggy didn't want to call, and face her boss, and his possible scorn. Again, that does NOT make it right. As my Dad taught me, "You can have a perfectly good, legit reason not to go to work. But there's never an excuse to not find a phone, and tell someone." This was an anniversary, so Peggy should have known ahead of time to ask off, or to at least warn her boss. But I can kind of understand her side, too.
And it's easy to fire employees like Peggy, because there are always others like her, waiting in the wings to take her place. And most employers don't care who is working for them, as long as *someone* is. So I'm glad this boss didn't fire her. It shows he truly cares about his team, not just as employees, but as people. But still. It's a really tough call. It's a hard subject. And it's really sad that it has to be this way. The American employment system is badly broken.
Load More Replies...I think he’s the asshole for giving her that ultimatum What about giving her a second chance? After 2 solid years of great work something obviously happened. He could have talked to her about this, come to agreement if it was too much responsibility for her or whatever. I am a Manager and always give my people second chances. Running a business is not the same as being a good leader and great people person. We all make mistakes and he needs to forgive and move on. Yes this was a business but how much did he really lose in money? He may have lost a good employee, and they’re hard to come by. He made a bad situation worse.
I have several mental illnesses, I need a job, I know how to call/text if I'm not going to be in that day. People that behave like this and try to use mental health as an excuse for their laziness, absolutely make me livid! It sounds like she was already getting the 'big head,' after becoming manager and just didn't want to come in. Nobody needs that kind of negativity. Let her go and have as many mental health days as she wants. I've never heard the expression with the spoons. Then again, when I was growing up, mental health wasn't believed or talked about it. Learned something new.
It takes no spoons to make a phone call. If she needed a "mental health day", then call 'em and let 'em know she needs to take a sick day. I have PTSD and sometimes I have had trouble leaving my house in the past... or have only had 3 hours of sleep.... and I find the "spoon" to ring the boss.
I felt bad for having to cancel an online meeting although i was rushed to first aid, which was the start of a 6-day hospitalization. I had someone of the team cancel the appointment. There is always a way to notify, no matter what.
Going AWOL is pretty bad, but so is termination. I would have told her that no show/no call is unacceptable and she will be terminated on the spot if it happens again. But I would have given her that one more chance. OP said she was a great employee for two years before her promotion. That should be worth one more chance.
NTA. I have mental health issues, but that’s no excuse for no show no call. There is no reason not to call. Period.
I think this is too harsh and she probably didn't want to give the real reason why she was no show. Dock her pay and deduct her vacation, and if it ever happens again then give her the ultimatum. She was clearly a good worker for 2 years. Thus firing culture in the US is why they have such ridiculous turnover low pay and disgruntled workers.
Sounds like handled it like an even-handed boss- Understanding up to the point where she's messing with the business and even then, he still sat down and had a talk with her.
Fire her and get rid of her now. The fact that she called you all those ist names means she's ready and looking for any excuse to file a lawsuit or discrimination charge. She knew what she did was wrong and was locked and loaded for when confronted. Get rid of her now. Or somewhere down the road you'll be facing a lawsuit.
DEFINITELY NTA ! as a person in her position knowing the money she is costing the store with the lack of a simple phone call is selfish, irresponsible and proves she isnt ready or able to handle that type of responsibility. Her actions affected other associates and cost the store money
Her explanation shows she's either in denial about her issues or has no planning skills. She had the bad mental health day because it was the anniversary of something. I totally get that. But if it's an anniversary then you know it's coming up and even if you're not expecting it to hit as hard as it did you know it's going to be a bad day for you. So make sure *in advance* you're not on the schedule. Then you don't have to worry about having the spoons on that day, because you took care of it in advance when you did have them.
It happens. Even best employee can miss alarm in the morning and come late once in a while. I wouldn't make tragedy from 1 day. Just tell customers if they were there that day before they get 10% discount following 2 or 3 days. And see how your manager goes further. Or schedule repeated mental health days for her when she doesn't have shift.
So, here's the thing about promotions: you have to ACCEPT the terms and conditions of the new responsibility, and when you do that you are making a promise to follow those rules. If you think your mental health would prevent you from performing your duties, DO NOT TAKE THAT JOB.
Seriously, this person is not an a$$ and if they were able to work it out in the way they did, they both deserve some admiration. #humans
Hard to encounter a grosser lie - so someone got promoted and next day it made a mistake that even disqualifies a rookie? That's in fact a satanist metaphor - they created physical restrictions for someone and now present them as "lack of professionalism"/ And do you think the poor guy is the target? No, it's the trillion idiots that might believe this setup - for such people not even God intervenes, and each generation being worst than the previous one made the evil feast copiously. For real, why would anyone choose one target when it can have trillions?
Oh good lordy I'm glad I'm retired and no longer own a business. The younger generation was raised without being taught how to handle responsibility and to self-manage. It's not their fault. Every minute of their time was scheduled from the time they could walk. Organized sports, scheduled play dates, specific club events and activities, etc. Gone are the days of "Have fun just be home when the street lights come on." Today's young adults organized nothing on their own, they didn't have to make major decisions, they weren't held responsible for their screw-ups, they weren't encouraged to create, self-motivate, or have imagination. I've had to deal with these emotionally fragile employees in the past. It is no fun. It is exhausting. It is infuriating.
The employee's job is to make the boss money. Not showing up for work doesn't make the boss money. Some of that money is needed to pay the employee. This is true for almost all jobs. (Charities and government jobs are some exceptions)
Workers are not just money making machines. They are people. The economy is there to serve society, not the other way round.
Load More Replies...I have suffered for years with anxiety, depression etc. But that doesn't mean that I'm entitled to blame everything on that, especially not my job. Sorry but if you can't handle what you are supposed to do you should be fired. And what about the other employees? I'm certain that they're not that happy with the employer's reaction (and rightfully so)?
Uh, lol, I literally said it's not right. That means I think what she did is wrong. I can explain why someone committed murder and understand the headspace they were in and still think it's completely wrong. I just like understanding things because I find it fascinating why people make the choices they do. Not sure why the downvotes.
Load More Replies...That's why she got the choice for a demotion. Because of her mental health she is insuitable to be the manager as 11 other People's livelyhood depend on it. You wouldn t make the guy who always crosses the street eyes closed opening manager either. And once back in her old role she can be helped to get back on her feet. The only reason she got the choice was because of the mental health issue
Load More Replies...“Obviously mentally unbalanced” - well, aren’t you just extra judge-y today? She was an exemplary employee for 2 years, how is that unbalanced? And having a mental illness does NOT mean “mentally unbalanced.” Maybe try compassion instead of superciliousness?
Load More Replies...No matter from which side you look at this situation, the boss had every right to fire her on the spot for not showing up without any notice. It's nice that he took responsibility for saying that he made a mistake by promoting her to manager, but in the end it was her choice to take her day of without letting her boss know.
agreed. Actually she didn‘t even take the day off. She didn‘t appear without any excuse. Plus, she had her fellow employees locked out. I would fire her right away.
Load More Replies...I cannot stand people who abuse mental health needs like this. It's manipulation. I don't believe her excuse. Just like with any illness it's your responsibility to call in.
Even if it was completely legit and she literally couldn't call because of a mental health crisis, it still makes you unreliable. I'm speaking from having those kinds of crisis. You aren't able to be responsible. It sucks but that's the way it is.
Load More Replies...No, the owner is not the A-hole. Period. If it has to be explained why he isn't, then the person who needs the explanation has not entered Adult World yet. And he was more than tolerant. Most would have canned her immediately.
Interestingly, she had no mental health crises during the two years she worked as a cashier, but suddenly had one after being promoted? To the extent that she couldn't pick up the phone and call her boss? Sounds like BS to me, and I have both depression and anxiety.
Load More Replies...As somebody with severe anxiety who has had to call in because I couldn't get out of bed, she should have called in. NTA. If she had the spoons to "do some self-care" she could have sent a freaking text. She's using legitimate medical issues and explanatory terms to justify her irresponsible behavior, making her double the AH: to the business owner and to other people with mental health issues.
Nope NTA. I have sacked people like her before. If I cannot trust you to pickup the phone then I certainly cannot trust you to do a job that keep the business alive. A business that keeps 13 people, including you and me, from starving and out in the streets.
"2 years as a solid employee" with fine mental health, my money is on a night out to celebrate the promotion and feeling rough the next day, but happy to play the "mental health" card because she thinks it won't be questioned
The owner posted an update to this post. She has had something incredibly traumatic happen to her that day 9 years ago, that left her unable to function on that day, if I remember correctly. She was definitely not out in the town, though
Load More Replies...I think his original offer was a generous one. The fact is, if this is an anniversary, then she KNEW the day was coming up and could easily have said something before it actually happened. And even if you are just having a really bad day, it does NOT take spoons to send a very short text saying "Sorry, can't come in today" before opening time. I would not have let her stay. Guarantee it won't be the last time she screws him over.
Exactly, she KNEW about it. But I'm just curious: did she have a meltdown on this date for two years before or is this somehow just affecting her this year? I call total BS on this one, she should have been fired.
Load More Replies...NTA. I'm a hotel GM and that's considered a no call no show, which is cause for immediate termination.
Fire her. Her reaction on the phone is what prevents her from just getting the demotion. Go through the call off policies and such as she is in management and that be the grounds for termination. Her mental health is her responsibility to manage, as well as her life which includes management of her own mental health. Frankly I wouldn't have put in in a management position without having her do the role for a few weeks to see if she really is a good candidate for the position.
I agree. Is the employer going to tip toe around her all the time now? And fit the schedule around her (which he kind of did in the end)? What kind of example does this set for the other employees? I'm sorry but by not firing her he's making all of them a big injustice.
Load More Replies...To be blunt, the fact that he wonders whether he's the Ahole, tells me that he probably lets employees walk all over him. But that's my opinion.
I think it shows that the boss is very considerate and understanding of the needs of their employees. It would be nice if more bosses were like that
Load More Replies...IMO the boss is far far too lenient. He basically rewarded her for being irresponsible: less responsibility + get to keep her pay raise. Self-care is important but not at the expense of other people. Thats called self-centred.
It says, very specifically, that her options were termination or going back to her old position with her OLD PAY. She doesn't keep the raise.
Load More Replies...There was an update on this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/onxses/aita_for_telling_an_employee_she_can_choose/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
NTA. I've been in management most of my life and I've made bad promotions before. Yes, there are other factors and communication after a NCNS that can save that employees job. I work with everyone because I know all of my people have lives outside of work, issues, and ya know they're human. Communication is the key. I'm going to read the update I found in the comments.
NTA. I actually no showed a bartending job because of an anxiety attack early 20s. I lived at home and checked into a hotel and read books for two days. I agreed to be fired, I wasn't the manager but they knew my situation and were very nice. I had been a great employee and ever called off. The owner actually hired me back a couple years later and I managed one of the stores. Second chances are wonderful but they had a business to run.
initial thoughts before update, no call no show = termination. after update, very good communication skills on the owner's part, if employee was good enough to promote they were valuable enough to keep, just not in that role.
I'm glad SOMEONE here recognized that this problem is probably because of circumstances - had anyone spoken to a medical health professional (and my Sister's one) this mental disease. We both caught it immediately after the "spoons" comment. What she needs a therapist, not twenty-eleven others yelling at her. Place her in a position less unwieldy and she'll do much better
The spoon simily is from an explanation about chronic fatigue. She really should not be manager if she is this fragile. Demoting her is a reasonable course of action, but from her reaction the owner might have to fire her.
I agree with the store owner. No way she should have done that. But, is there a slim chance she's not being honest? Perhaps the real reason she was absent was something she didn't want to talk about, like an abusive partner. I once worked with a young woman who was late one day and showed up in bare feet!! The abusive uncle she lived with destroyed her shoes during the night. He would also lock in in rooms for days on end, throw her car keys away, it was crazy and he apparently had custody of her until she was 18.
I think at the very most under these circumstances he should have allowed her the opportunity to explain herself, which he did , and she failed to be convincing. Beyond that, whether you think he's an asshole or not, he's the owner of the shop and ultimately it's up to him to do what he thinks is best to protect it. And i have a hard time saying that because, well it is a VAPE shop. ICK!
She posted an update yesterday. Employee asked to talk and apologized. Employer apologized for promoting her beyond her ability and made a new position for her that she could handle with the option to let her know if she's ever ready to take on management. Good communication wins again.
We as a society have created this problem of "i dont feel like it" in the workplace. Strong/good work-ethic is a rarity unfortunately. NTA. I would have fired her on the phone and been done with it. Someone more deserving would be able to assume her role.
We as a society have created this problem of pitting employees against each other in the workplace. That's why nobody dares ring in sick anymore in case they get fired. This isn't about work ethics. It's about being human and kind and compassionate, recognising each person's unique contribution (even if they're sometimes ill or make mistakes) instead of pitting everyone against each other.
Load More Replies...As someone who has the issue that the employee has, he is still NTA. Yes, it is possible to be so far gone to mental health issues that you wake up one day incapable of managing even a simple phone call. It is also possible she's toxic and taking advantage. But *even* if we assume she is 100% legit, someone with those issues cannot be counted on to be opening the store and so should not be a manager.
“I didn’t have the spoons for that” can someone please tell me what does that mean? Is it minutes on her phone? I’m lost but aside he’s NTA
Spoons is something people with disabilities use to indicate that everything costs energy and how much they have left. Having no more spoons means they have no more energy left. Not to be confused with being tired, because being out of spoons is so much worse than that
Load More Replies...Fire Peggy. She is basically abusing her position because she thinks you recognize her as indispensable and won’t take the risk of losing your business with her not working there. Time to prove her wrong and tell her she is taking the pists
As someone with mental health issues, Peggy is absolutely in the wrong. I've needed sudden mental health days, but even when I'm having a breakdown on the bathroom floor, I acknowledge the rest of the world goes on outside of me, my workplace needs to know I won't be there. Call. If you can't call, text. If you can't text work, get a family member to do so in your stead. Peggy has no right to call her boss names, they are already being far more accommodating then most places would be.
My opinion....he was right, she was wrong. She wanted to see what she could get away with!
You have to make reasonable accommodations for someone to work when they have an illness or disability - such as allowing mental health days. This is not even close to falling under that. If she gets so bad that even sending a text, or asking someone else to call, to let them know that they need to cover for her is physically impossible? There are only two ways to accommodate that: - have two managers both showing up to open each morning to open, on the offchance the main employee is a no show - just accept that on some random days, your store won't open, you'll lose business, and other employees won't be able to work (so casual staff at the very least won't be paid) The first one is pointless, and the second is absurd. If she's being truthful, then her mental health prevents her from doing one of the basic tasks of the manager job, and there are no reasonable accommodations that could be made to work around it. Legally the boss can demote her.
Even in the absolute depth of my major depressive episode, where I could barely even eat or sleep, I would have taken the 2 minutes to call into work to tell them I wouldn't be there. Mental Health is a big deal, but you still have an obligation to other people, to atleast be able to work around you.
I have mental health issues myself and I know that I couldn't cope with a managerial position. She may have been quite comfortable in her old position and able to do a great job but not be able to cope with the extra responsibility. I can't believe she wouldn't have known that when she was offered the position and say to her boss she had a mental health issue and couldn't cope with that.
Give her all the time and fresh air out there for good. It'll vent it all out. A relative of mine once had a bad time trying to land a job (no skills and after a gap year she had enjoyed after school). No one wants me, she said after some interviews- then explained she's got used to waking up at 10 am and working hours wouldn't fit it. Plus, fitness time three times a week (during the day, of course). Baad employers, shitty offers she said...
As an employee, I'd expect to get my ass fired if I didn't bother to call in and just not show up.
I have mental health issues like depression and anxiety. If I have to take time off I have always fulfilled my obligation to my employers to inform them before my shift started that I wouldn't be turning up to work. If I didn't have enough spoons in my drawer for that (I'd urge this manager to look up 'spoon theory' which will help explain what that means), I'd make sure I'd ask a family member to call in for me. This Peggy is using mental health as an excuse not to be responsible for her position.
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT saying Peggy was in the right, here, or that the owner shouldn't have taken action. He definitely did what he should have. And I think letting her keep her raise was very generous of him, and I applaud him for that. I just wanted to point out that, here in the US, most employers, unfortunately, look very unkindly on the concept of "mental health days". If you call out, almost every employer out there will demand a doctor's note, and threaten disciplinary action if you don't get one. This is bad enough when an employee feels bad enough to stay home, but it isn't b/c of something a doctor can help with, like severe menstrual cramps, a strained muscle (all you can really do is rest), or a cold (there's no medicine they can give you, all you can do is treat the symptoms with OTC meds and, again, rest). So you have to waste a doctor's time, especially during Covid, and put yourself at risk of picking up a worse germ, from their office. Or, if it's a cold, you have to go to work sick, and spread it to others. Add to this that a ton of minimum wage jobs offer no benefits, or benefits too expensive to maintain, but pay just enough to disqualify the employee from medicaid. Which means to go to the doctor, you have to pay out of pocket, which nobody can afford, or go to the ER, and waste time there that could go to MUCH sicker people. Or, you could just not get a doctor's note, and end up with a write-up, and a black mark on your record. Most employers require drs notes for ANY special allowances-hell, they won't even let you put a chair in front of the cash register without that slip of paper. They'd rather you stand in one place for 9 hours straight, and destroy your feet and back. And most drs won't even see you for a mental crisis-they'll refer you to some shrink that takes months to get into. Mental illness, is, sadly seen as a weakness, in the workplace. Oh, they can't outwardly discriminate, of course. But they'll find their reasons, and their ways. This only exacerbates the problem. Sometimes, it's a struggle just to get out of bed. But employers don't care. So I can see why Peggy didn't want to call, and face her boss, and his possible scorn. Again, that does NOT make it right. As my Dad taught me, "You can have a perfectly good, legit reason not to go to work. But there's never an excuse to not find a phone, and tell someone." This was an anniversary, so Peggy should have known ahead of time to ask off, or to at least warn her boss. But I can kind of understand her side, too.
And it's easy to fire employees like Peggy, because there are always others like her, waiting in the wings to take her place. And most employers don't care who is working for them, as long as *someone* is. So I'm glad this boss didn't fire her. It shows he truly cares about his team, not just as employees, but as people. But still. It's a really tough call. It's a hard subject. And it's really sad that it has to be this way. The American employment system is badly broken.
Load More Replies...I think he’s the asshole for giving her that ultimatum What about giving her a second chance? After 2 solid years of great work something obviously happened. He could have talked to her about this, come to agreement if it was too much responsibility for her or whatever. I am a Manager and always give my people second chances. Running a business is not the same as being a good leader and great people person. We all make mistakes and he needs to forgive and move on. Yes this was a business but how much did he really lose in money? He may have lost a good employee, and they’re hard to come by. He made a bad situation worse.
I have several mental illnesses, I need a job, I know how to call/text if I'm not going to be in that day. People that behave like this and try to use mental health as an excuse for their laziness, absolutely make me livid! It sounds like she was already getting the 'big head,' after becoming manager and just didn't want to come in. Nobody needs that kind of negativity. Let her go and have as many mental health days as she wants. I've never heard the expression with the spoons. Then again, when I was growing up, mental health wasn't believed or talked about it. Learned something new.
It takes no spoons to make a phone call. If she needed a "mental health day", then call 'em and let 'em know she needs to take a sick day. I have PTSD and sometimes I have had trouble leaving my house in the past... or have only had 3 hours of sleep.... and I find the "spoon" to ring the boss.
I felt bad for having to cancel an online meeting although i was rushed to first aid, which was the start of a 6-day hospitalization. I had someone of the team cancel the appointment. There is always a way to notify, no matter what.
Going AWOL is pretty bad, but so is termination. I would have told her that no show/no call is unacceptable and she will be terminated on the spot if it happens again. But I would have given her that one more chance. OP said she was a great employee for two years before her promotion. That should be worth one more chance.
NTA. I have mental health issues, but that’s no excuse for no show no call. There is no reason not to call. Period.
I think this is too harsh and she probably didn't want to give the real reason why she was no show. Dock her pay and deduct her vacation, and if it ever happens again then give her the ultimatum. She was clearly a good worker for 2 years. Thus firing culture in the US is why they have such ridiculous turnover low pay and disgruntled workers.
Sounds like handled it like an even-handed boss- Understanding up to the point where she's messing with the business and even then, he still sat down and had a talk with her.
Fire her and get rid of her now. The fact that she called you all those ist names means she's ready and looking for any excuse to file a lawsuit or discrimination charge. She knew what she did was wrong and was locked and loaded for when confronted. Get rid of her now. Or somewhere down the road you'll be facing a lawsuit.
DEFINITELY NTA ! as a person in her position knowing the money she is costing the store with the lack of a simple phone call is selfish, irresponsible and proves she isnt ready or able to handle that type of responsibility. Her actions affected other associates and cost the store money
Her explanation shows she's either in denial about her issues or has no planning skills. She had the bad mental health day because it was the anniversary of something. I totally get that. But if it's an anniversary then you know it's coming up and even if you're not expecting it to hit as hard as it did you know it's going to be a bad day for you. So make sure *in advance* you're not on the schedule. Then you don't have to worry about having the spoons on that day, because you took care of it in advance when you did have them.
It happens. Even best employee can miss alarm in the morning and come late once in a while. I wouldn't make tragedy from 1 day. Just tell customers if they were there that day before they get 10% discount following 2 or 3 days. And see how your manager goes further. Or schedule repeated mental health days for her when she doesn't have shift.
So, here's the thing about promotions: you have to ACCEPT the terms and conditions of the new responsibility, and when you do that you are making a promise to follow those rules. If you think your mental health would prevent you from performing your duties, DO NOT TAKE THAT JOB.
Seriously, this person is not an a$$ and if they were able to work it out in the way they did, they both deserve some admiration. #humans
Hard to encounter a grosser lie - so someone got promoted and next day it made a mistake that even disqualifies a rookie? That's in fact a satanist metaphor - they created physical restrictions for someone and now present them as "lack of professionalism"/ And do you think the poor guy is the target? No, it's the trillion idiots that might believe this setup - for such people not even God intervenes, and each generation being worst than the previous one made the evil feast copiously. For real, why would anyone choose one target when it can have trillions?
Oh good lordy I'm glad I'm retired and no longer own a business. The younger generation was raised without being taught how to handle responsibility and to self-manage. It's not their fault. Every minute of their time was scheduled from the time they could walk. Organized sports, scheduled play dates, specific club events and activities, etc. Gone are the days of "Have fun just be home when the street lights come on." Today's young adults organized nothing on their own, they didn't have to make major decisions, they weren't held responsible for their screw-ups, they weren't encouraged to create, self-motivate, or have imagination. I've had to deal with these emotionally fragile employees in the past. It is no fun. It is exhausting. It is infuriating.
The employee's job is to make the boss money. Not showing up for work doesn't make the boss money. Some of that money is needed to pay the employee. This is true for almost all jobs. (Charities and government jobs are some exceptions)
Workers are not just money making machines. They are people. The economy is there to serve society, not the other way round.
Load More Replies...I have suffered for years with anxiety, depression etc. But that doesn't mean that I'm entitled to blame everything on that, especially not my job. Sorry but if you can't handle what you are supposed to do you should be fired. And what about the other employees? I'm certain that they're not that happy with the employer's reaction (and rightfully so)?
Uh, lol, I literally said it's not right. That means I think what she did is wrong. I can explain why someone committed murder and understand the headspace they were in and still think it's completely wrong. I just like understanding things because I find it fascinating why people make the choices they do. Not sure why the downvotes.
Load More Replies...That's why she got the choice for a demotion. Because of her mental health she is insuitable to be the manager as 11 other People's livelyhood depend on it. You wouldn t make the guy who always crosses the street eyes closed opening manager either. And once back in her old role she can be helped to get back on her feet. The only reason she got the choice was because of the mental health issue
Load More Replies...“Obviously mentally unbalanced” - well, aren’t you just extra judge-y today? She was an exemplary employee for 2 years, how is that unbalanced? And having a mental illness does NOT mean “mentally unbalanced.” Maybe try compassion instead of superciliousness?
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