Somebody ‘Edited Out Your Stupid Signature’ And Refused To Credit An Artist, So People Responded In A Powerful Way:
With the rise of the digital era, many artists find more and more opportunities to share their art with broader audiences. One no longer needs to fight their way into galleries or into publishing, as the internet offers a wide range of venues for artwork, from everyday social media to more curated and art-focused sites. However, as great as the net is for sharing one’s work, it also poses some major problems for the artist. Art theft, misattribution and erasure of artist’s identity are some of the biggest obstacles many people struggle with when putting their work online. And while some believe that it’s common sense to credit the artist when sharing their work, this post shows that common sense is not so common after all. Artists of Tumblr joined forces to fight the attitude of the original poster and point out how the arguments they presented are wrong. So scroll down below to read the full story and tell us which side you support.
Facebook cover credits: pxhere
One user announced that they won’t credit artists and why, so artists of Tumblr joined forces to explain their point of view
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Share on FacebookEverything the artists said. The original poster should f**k off, maybe even get sued.
Just wondering : are Full Name and the "Dramarising" that think (s)he can edit the artists signature the same person? ;p
Load More Replies...The signature is essentially the artist's personal trademark. LEAVE IT THE F**K ALONE!!!!!!
I'm shocked that the OP is even the kind of person who enjoys any kind of creative artwork. I mean with that personality its shocking they get any joy or appreciation out of anything.
Not only is erasing the artist signature (ugly or not), ILLEGAL it can cost you thousands more in legal DAMAGES than the infringement alone. I've had my art stolen repeatedly - SO often in fact that I keep attorneys to help me go after those who abuse/violate my copyrights. Buying an artwork is only like buying an apple in that when you buy the artwork that is ALL you are buying ... You are not buying ANY ownership of the design, AT ALL. Commissioning a custom artwork also does not automatically come with copyright to that image - It all depends on the Agreement you have with the artist. As a professional, independent artist, I personally retain full copyrights to ALL my artworks, commissioned or otherwise. All the original author has done was to prove they have NO morals, NO manners, and are lacking BASIC knowledge of copyright law to the extent that someday, they will do this to an artist who WILL file suit against them for BREAKING THE LAW.
Yep, since I draw for professional reasons sometimes I looked into this and it's true. Unless the deal includes something like the total transfer of rights to the piece the copyright is always with the creator. Simply put, the client only buys the "'time and effort" of the artist who creates something for them and "the right to display' said artwork unless there is a contract stating otherwise. Working in advertising our contracts often include said transfer of rights to the client when creating logos etc to the client in exchange for the fee. Clients want this to avoid legal troubles later.
Load More Replies...Ungrateful piece of s**t! I hope he gets this back and more via KARMA!
You know what would be great? If he commissions a piece from an artist who later becomes famous and their work is worth a lot of money but the piece he commissioned is worth nothing because he removed the signature that makes it worth something.
Load More Replies...As a legal practitioner, here a piece of practical advice for artists who do not like seeing their signatures removed without their consent - When selling commissioned work, add a statement in writing to say "By purchasing this [insert description (photograph / picture / etc)], you agree that you shall not remove the artist's signature or watermark or other means of identification without the artist's consent. All rights reserved." Display this statement in a way that can be clearly communicated to the buyer - in your email to the buyer, on your website, anywhere, doesn't matter, so long as there is no way the buyer can miss it. You can modify the statement anyway you like, so long as the message is clear that you do not agree to the buyer removing the signature without your consent. [Disclaimer: This is not intended to be legal advice. Seek a lawyer's advice if need be.]
You do not need a lawyer to draw up a long-winded contract everytime you sell your work. But you SHOULD state your terms and conditions clearly at the point of sale. State clearly what you allow your work to be used and how, what will require your consent, and what you will never allow. Use simple language. Get your point across. Complicated legalese is not required. I do not agree that identifying an artist to his work is a matter of common sense, although it is a matter of morals. And any artist that hopes to rely on common sense (or moral decency) for protection is simply naive. Since you have put in so much effort to create your work, spend a little more time and effort to understand basic copyright law AND contract law. It goes a long way for your protection.
Load More Replies...Do the cut/censor the brand in all of their food, electronics and clothing? no? then leave signatures alone.
My wife is an artist and when she does commissions, everything from altering, to credit, to use, and/or how long the art may be used is specified. I see what goes on to make the work happen and if a person modified her work we would settle it in court or outside. If it's so easy to do, then do it your damn self.
This equates to buying a car and taking all of the branding off of it so no where on it it says, for example, Dodge. It's moronic how some people treat artists. Just because you don't consider it a real job in your narrow minded view doesn't give a person the right to belittle or demean another persons job.
This is why I work my signature into the piece of art itself. sometimes several times.
Whats next: seeing a comment that is hilairous and hacking out the name and putting yours?
Always leave the artists signature there, that way others who like it can know where to get one. I used to do art, and I know how important others who like it being able to find em was. These days I run a business with a friend where we commission usable art pieces and resell them (with a full contract with out potters, woodworkers, etc, that they types of items we commission can only be sold through us) and with every piece we provide a full bio about the artist with their e-mail and etsy page so if others like what we sell they can contact the artist for their own items. And we have a great relationship with them because of it. And as an former artist (I haven't done a new portrait in years) and my partner being a professional calligrapher we both understand the need for the artist to be given full credit and his/her name to be on the item no matter what. Commissioning does not mean you get to be an a-hole
Comparing a piece of hand-created art to buying an apple in a grocery store is an idiot comparison. The grocery store didn't create the apple. But the art was conceived and created by a person who did so for a living. It would be the same problem if removed or destroyed the author's name on a book you bought. You may talk about the book and others may see it on your shelf and ask who wrote it. Would you honestly say "I don't know" just because you're too selfish to let an artist have exposure to other people? It's not an ad... it's a creator's signature.
It is sad that most people on various websites just upload their galleries full of other people's drawings and photos without crediting the original artists. It is against the Terms of Use of those websites but too many people still do it. Usually it is OK to just upload pictures that you photographed or drew.
I have seen people do this. The artists have left initials and such as a signatures and when a person buys that piece of artwork and removes that signature because they don't like it they STUPIDLY reduce the value. So in doing the artists a disservice they do it to themselves even more.
As an artist for 50 years, most people tell me how much they love my work. However, most people don’t want to pay me what would be a living wage to own a piece of my artwork. People think of art as a hobby, and that tends to make them think that you as an artist would be delighted to donate all of the expensive supplies and extensive time you spent making the artwork for no compensation. That is why I didn’t make a career out of my art. I didn’t want to starve. I gave it up. I could have become a great artist if I had only spent more time at it. I just couldn’t afford to give all my hard work and talent away. It’s kind of the same subject as the art buyer not wanting the signature of the artist on the work, isn’t it? If I painted a piece and then someone wanted to buy it, It felt like I was selling one of my children. We artists put our whole heart and soul into our work. However, if I take a piece on commision, I would ask the customer wheter or not he wanted it signed.
If someone buys my work and then paints out my (also a small monogram) it's their loss. I hope that my work will increase in value over time, but if the owner can't prove it is mine then they don't get to share in that, or any increase in prestige. I don't take commissions for my art work, only for illustrations which I don't sign anyway...much happier since I stopped. When people come to me and start talking about this painting they would like I tell them to think about going to art school so they have the skills required to make it.
While I'm glad that at least the OP acknowledges it's not their art (some people like them actually will edit out the signature and add their own), they still sound like a d*ck.
What the f*ck is wrong with the OP? I'm an artist myself and it takes me forever to draw sometimes, so of course I'd like to put my signature on it to make sure nobody steals it, and I'd really like for permission if you decided to take the signature off or you posted it somewhere else.
USE THE SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A GOOD THING!!!!! DON'T COVER IT UP!!!1
Bro the art's last panel where they're surrounded with cut off bits of "by: The Artist" and "chances are you are but the first one to do that." Legit made me ugly cry. GIVE THEIR WELL DESERVED CREDIT AND DON'T EDIT IT OUT.
this is actually a good idea thanks for telling me about this some of these assholes on the internet photoshop and never had to nerves to put the middle finger and called out is being. ridiculous like hell these people are just so f*****g dumb I'm glad I learn about this very well like thanks for teaching about this
That's like saying you go to work, you do a report, hand it in to your boss, and your boss throws away the coversheet with your name on it. Then the boss shows the obviously stellar report to their boss. Big boss asks who did it, your boss says, I dunno some peon in the office. Big boss says too bad, I could have used this person for bigger, better, higher paying job. But you missed out, all because the your boss thought because he was in charge of your payroll, your name didn't have to be on your report.
Those that remove whatever should have to remove Gucci logo and never be given credit in school or at work. They should only be referred to as her or he or it.
and then there's people that ask you to work for "experience" and not actual money. They are just as bad.
As an artist who has sold artwork, whether graphic design, illustration or fine art, if someone buys it - they own it. It is theirs to paint over, burn or erase, unless stated otherwise beforehand. PS. Stop comparing yourself to Picasso. You're not a Picasso. And yes, if you buy a Picasso you can paint over it too. IT'S YOURS.
The OP sounds like one of those people obsessed with having original things no one else has ever seen or heard of. Like those annoying people that brag about listening to obscure bands no one else knows. It's some weird need to be so apart from other people and to get them to try to chase down the things you like that make you sooooooo different.
Makes me wonder what the original jackass's thoughts are on fanfiction, and even published books. If he purchases a book does he rip out the page with the author's name on it? Anyway, don't do this, if you do this you're an actual walking choad and I hope you step on a lego.
My husband deals with this kind of s**t constantly. He works full time, but is an amateur photographer as a hobby. I can't tell you the number of times a client wants a digital copy of the prints, but without his "watermark" on it. Are you f*****g stupid? You may have a PRINT of your photo (however many you have agreed to pay for) but we are NOT going to give you a digital copy without his logo.
And by watermark I mean that lightly printed personal logo smack dab in the middle of the photo. It can't be photoshopped out and it can't be cut. For this very reason.
Load More Replies...Omg I'm an artist and I actually saw this original post on Instagram like a month or so ago!
As a photographer I find this amusing and infuriating. My creations are sold based upon usage which may or may not require attribution. But, there are artists out there who feel they have the right to "sample" my work and incorporate it into their "own" art without attribution or payment. So, I am used to being screwed by my fellow artists as well as the public at large.
I agree with where the original poster is coming from, but at the least they should keep the signature. I get not linking or tagging them in it, but come on they did you a service the least you can do is acknowledge their work by displaying their signature.
to add, someone did that art to pay their bills. maybe if this poster had to do art to pay bills he wouldn't be such an insensitive jerk.
Load More Replies...Suggestion: If I want a piece of art without a signature, I ask the artist before making the deal. Maybe the artist is even okay with that for an extra charge as compensation! (But even if he isn't, don't get emotional over it or try to cut legal corners. Just go on looking for another artist.)
Nothing wrong with taking out the signature. We did it for a play we were in and I just said "I don't remember who wrote 'Hamlet' "..... LOL
I don't understand this mindset at all... I love seeing that signature in the corner of my prints. It's delightful telling friends and family who made the art hanging in my house. I proudly boast "Artist made it isn't it awesome!?" That's part of buying art - The artist!
"Wow! Who did that painting?" "I don't remember." "Where can I buy apples?" "I don't remember." "What was the name of the lawyer who helped you settle out of court with that artist whose signature your removed?" "I don't remember."
There is a practical business basis for the author's perspective, and the best solution is that artists (and businesses) may often charge a slightly higher price to remove their signature/personal advertisement. This does little to hurt the artist - if one likes a work enough to want to spend money to have their own, then they will ask the owner who the artist is. If it's art for the sake of art, such as a painting, song embroidery for personal use, then it's typical to want that personalized signature on there - it often makes it more of a conversation piece. However if it's for practical use , then it is distracting and muddled (and therefore unprofessional) to have a signature on everything done by an artist. A pair of Air Jordan sneakers would need MJ's signature, plus one for the Nike logo, and at least one for the show design. You can also imagine adding a credits sequence to every TV advert. The author (still a d**k) would be better off asking in advance to omit the signature.
This post lacks credibility. The only reason a buyer would benefit from removing the artists signature is to claim credit for producing the work. This buyer did not do that. As with any artwork, a piece loses value when it is not attributed. Why would a buyer wish to unidentify work by an artist who might become famous? Unless this is just a personal dispute...possible, very possible.
Someone should beat the living s**t out of that f*****g idiot. Being an artist is hard enough as it is. Jeez what a moron.
Ok so I don't get the hate about this. Sure, the dude comes off as a d**k but as a somewhat of an artist myself, who did get some paid gigs to draw things - after I'm paid, I couldn't care less about what they do with the artwork OR my signature. They want to modify it? Edit it out? Crop and chop it? Burn it in the trash? Fine by me as long as I got my money. (The one thing I wouldn't stand for is for others taking credit for my work but I think that's illegal...) Some people are just too god damn sensitive.
Altering the art in any way is also illegal unless it's part of the deal.
Load More Replies...Everything the artists said. The original poster should f**k off, maybe even get sued.
Just wondering : are Full Name and the "Dramarising" that think (s)he can edit the artists signature the same person? ;p
Load More Replies...The signature is essentially the artist's personal trademark. LEAVE IT THE F**K ALONE!!!!!!
I'm shocked that the OP is even the kind of person who enjoys any kind of creative artwork. I mean with that personality its shocking they get any joy or appreciation out of anything.
Not only is erasing the artist signature (ugly or not), ILLEGAL it can cost you thousands more in legal DAMAGES than the infringement alone. I've had my art stolen repeatedly - SO often in fact that I keep attorneys to help me go after those who abuse/violate my copyrights. Buying an artwork is only like buying an apple in that when you buy the artwork that is ALL you are buying ... You are not buying ANY ownership of the design, AT ALL. Commissioning a custom artwork also does not automatically come with copyright to that image - It all depends on the Agreement you have with the artist. As a professional, independent artist, I personally retain full copyrights to ALL my artworks, commissioned or otherwise. All the original author has done was to prove they have NO morals, NO manners, and are lacking BASIC knowledge of copyright law to the extent that someday, they will do this to an artist who WILL file suit against them for BREAKING THE LAW.
Yep, since I draw for professional reasons sometimes I looked into this and it's true. Unless the deal includes something like the total transfer of rights to the piece the copyright is always with the creator. Simply put, the client only buys the "'time and effort" of the artist who creates something for them and "the right to display' said artwork unless there is a contract stating otherwise. Working in advertising our contracts often include said transfer of rights to the client when creating logos etc to the client in exchange for the fee. Clients want this to avoid legal troubles later.
Load More Replies...Ungrateful piece of s**t! I hope he gets this back and more via KARMA!
You know what would be great? If he commissions a piece from an artist who later becomes famous and their work is worth a lot of money but the piece he commissioned is worth nothing because he removed the signature that makes it worth something.
Load More Replies...As a legal practitioner, here a piece of practical advice for artists who do not like seeing their signatures removed without their consent - When selling commissioned work, add a statement in writing to say "By purchasing this [insert description (photograph / picture / etc)], you agree that you shall not remove the artist's signature or watermark or other means of identification without the artist's consent. All rights reserved." Display this statement in a way that can be clearly communicated to the buyer - in your email to the buyer, on your website, anywhere, doesn't matter, so long as there is no way the buyer can miss it. You can modify the statement anyway you like, so long as the message is clear that you do not agree to the buyer removing the signature without your consent. [Disclaimer: This is not intended to be legal advice. Seek a lawyer's advice if need be.]
You do not need a lawyer to draw up a long-winded contract everytime you sell your work. But you SHOULD state your terms and conditions clearly at the point of sale. State clearly what you allow your work to be used and how, what will require your consent, and what you will never allow. Use simple language. Get your point across. Complicated legalese is not required. I do not agree that identifying an artist to his work is a matter of common sense, although it is a matter of morals. And any artist that hopes to rely on common sense (or moral decency) for protection is simply naive. Since you have put in so much effort to create your work, spend a little more time and effort to understand basic copyright law AND contract law. It goes a long way for your protection.
Load More Replies...Do the cut/censor the brand in all of their food, electronics and clothing? no? then leave signatures alone.
My wife is an artist and when she does commissions, everything from altering, to credit, to use, and/or how long the art may be used is specified. I see what goes on to make the work happen and if a person modified her work we would settle it in court or outside. If it's so easy to do, then do it your damn self.
This equates to buying a car and taking all of the branding off of it so no where on it it says, for example, Dodge. It's moronic how some people treat artists. Just because you don't consider it a real job in your narrow minded view doesn't give a person the right to belittle or demean another persons job.
This is why I work my signature into the piece of art itself. sometimes several times.
Whats next: seeing a comment that is hilairous and hacking out the name and putting yours?
Always leave the artists signature there, that way others who like it can know where to get one. I used to do art, and I know how important others who like it being able to find em was. These days I run a business with a friend where we commission usable art pieces and resell them (with a full contract with out potters, woodworkers, etc, that they types of items we commission can only be sold through us) and with every piece we provide a full bio about the artist with their e-mail and etsy page so if others like what we sell they can contact the artist for their own items. And we have a great relationship with them because of it. And as an former artist (I haven't done a new portrait in years) and my partner being a professional calligrapher we both understand the need for the artist to be given full credit and his/her name to be on the item no matter what. Commissioning does not mean you get to be an a-hole
Comparing a piece of hand-created art to buying an apple in a grocery store is an idiot comparison. The grocery store didn't create the apple. But the art was conceived and created by a person who did so for a living. It would be the same problem if removed or destroyed the author's name on a book you bought. You may talk about the book and others may see it on your shelf and ask who wrote it. Would you honestly say "I don't know" just because you're too selfish to let an artist have exposure to other people? It's not an ad... it's a creator's signature.
It is sad that most people on various websites just upload their galleries full of other people's drawings and photos without crediting the original artists. It is against the Terms of Use of those websites but too many people still do it. Usually it is OK to just upload pictures that you photographed or drew.
I have seen people do this. The artists have left initials and such as a signatures and when a person buys that piece of artwork and removes that signature because they don't like it they STUPIDLY reduce the value. So in doing the artists a disservice they do it to themselves even more.
As an artist for 50 years, most people tell me how much they love my work. However, most people don’t want to pay me what would be a living wage to own a piece of my artwork. People think of art as a hobby, and that tends to make them think that you as an artist would be delighted to donate all of the expensive supplies and extensive time you spent making the artwork for no compensation. That is why I didn’t make a career out of my art. I didn’t want to starve. I gave it up. I could have become a great artist if I had only spent more time at it. I just couldn’t afford to give all my hard work and talent away. It’s kind of the same subject as the art buyer not wanting the signature of the artist on the work, isn’t it? If I painted a piece and then someone wanted to buy it, It felt like I was selling one of my children. We artists put our whole heart and soul into our work. However, if I take a piece on commision, I would ask the customer wheter or not he wanted it signed.
If someone buys my work and then paints out my (also a small monogram) it's their loss. I hope that my work will increase in value over time, but if the owner can't prove it is mine then they don't get to share in that, or any increase in prestige. I don't take commissions for my art work, only for illustrations which I don't sign anyway...much happier since I stopped. When people come to me and start talking about this painting they would like I tell them to think about going to art school so they have the skills required to make it.
While I'm glad that at least the OP acknowledges it's not their art (some people like them actually will edit out the signature and add their own), they still sound like a d*ck.
What the f*ck is wrong with the OP? I'm an artist myself and it takes me forever to draw sometimes, so of course I'd like to put my signature on it to make sure nobody steals it, and I'd really like for permission if you decided to take the signature off or you posted it somewhere else.
USE THE SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A GOOD THING!!!!! DON'T COVER IT UP!!!1
Bro the art's last panel where they're surrounded with cut off bits of "by: The Artist" and "chances are you are but the first one to do that." Legit made me ugly cry. GIVE THEIR WELL DESERVED CREDIT AND DON'T EDIT IT OUT.
this is actually a good idea thanks for telling me about this some of these assholes on the internet photoshop and never had to nerves to put the middle finger and called out is being. ridiculous like hell these people are just so f*****g dumb I'm glad I learn about this very well like thanks for teaching about this
That's like saying you go to work, you do a report, hand it in to your boss, and your boss throws away the coversheet with your name on it. Then the boss shows the obviously stellar report to their boss. Big boss asks who did it, your boss says, I dunno some peon in the office. Big boss says too bad, I could have used this person for bigger, better, higher paying job. But you missed out, all because the your boss thought because he was in charge of your payroll, your name didn't have to be on your report.
Those that remove whatever should have to remove Gucci logo and never be given credit in school or at work. They should only be referred to as her or he or it.
and then there's people that ask you to work for "experience" and not actual money. They are just as bad.
As an artist who has sold artwork, whether graphic design, illustration or fine art, if someone buys it - they own it. It is theirs to paint over, burn or erase, unless stated otherwise beforehand. PS. Stop comparing yourself to Picasso. You're not a Picasso. And yes, if you buy a Picasso you can paint over it too. IT'S YOURS.
The OP sounds like one of those people obsessed with having original things no one else has ever seen or heard of. Like those annoying people that brag about listening to obscure bands no one else knows. It's some weird need to be so apart from other people and to get them to try to chase down the things you like that make you sooooooo different.
Makes me wonder what the original jackass's thoughts are on fanfiction, and even published books. If he purchases a book does he rip out the page with the author's name on it? Anyway, don't do this, if you do this you're an actual walking choad and I hope you step on a lego.
My husband deals with this kind of s**t constantly. He works full time, but is an amateur photographer as a hobby. I can't tell you the number of times a client wants a digital copy of the prints, but without his "watermark" on it. Are you f*****g stupid? You may have a PRINT of your photo (however many you have agreed to pay for) but we are NOT going to give you a digital copy without his logo.
And by watermark I mean that lightly printed personal logo smack dab in the middle of the photo. It can't be photoshopped out and it can't be cut. For this very reason.
Load More Replies...Omg I'm an artist and I actually saw this original post on Instagram like a month or so ago!
As a photographer I find this amusing and infuriating. My creations are sold based upon usage which may or may not require attribution. But, there are artists out there who feel they have the right to "sample" my work and incorporate it into their "own" art without attribution or payment. So, I am used to being screwed by my fellow artists as well as the public at large.
I agree with where the original poster is coming from, but at the least they should keep the signature. I get not linking or tagging them in it, but come on they did you a service the least you can do is acknowledge their work by displaying their signature.
to add, someone did that art to pay their bills. maybe if this poster had to do art to pay bills he wouldn't be such an insensitive jerk.
Load More Replies...Suggestion: If I want a piece of art without a signature, I ask the artist before making the deal. Maybe the artist is even okay with that for an extra charge as compensation! (But even if he isn't, don't get emotional over it or try to cut legal corners. Just go on looking for another artist.)
Nothing wrong with taking out the signature. We did it for a play we were in and I just said "I don't remember who wrote 'Hamlet' "..... LOL
I don't understand this mindset at all... I love seeing that signature in the corner of my prints. It's delightful telling friends and family who made the art hanging in my house. I proudly boast "Artist made it isn't it awesome!?" That's part of buying art - The artist!
"Wow! Who did that painting?" "I don't remember." "Where can I buy apples?" "I don't remember." "What was the name of the lawyer who helped you settle out of court with that artist whose signature your removed?" "I don't remember."
There is a practical business basis for the author's perspective, and the best solution is that artists (and businesses) may often charge a slightly higher price to remove their signature/personal advertisement. This does little to hurt the artist - if one likes a work enough to want to spend money to have their own, then they will ask the owner who the artist is. If it's art for the sake of art, such as a painting, song embroidery for personal use, then it's typical to want that personalized signature on there - it often makes it more of a conversation piece. However if it's for practical use , then it is distracting and muddled (and therefore unprofessional) to have a signature on everything done by an artist. A pair of Air Jordan sneakers would need MJ's signature, plus one for the Nike logo, and at least one for the show design. You can also imagine adding a credits sequence to every TV advert. The author (still a d**k) would be better off asking in advance to omit the signature.
This post lacks credibility. The only reason a buyer would benefit from removing the artists signature is to claim credit for producing the work. This buyer did not do that. As with any artwork, a piece loses value when it is not attributed. Why would a buyer wish to unidentify work by an artist who might become famous? Unless this is just a personal dispute...possible, very possible.
Someone should beat the living s**t out of that f*****g idiot. Being an artist is hard enough as it is. Jeez what a moron.
Ok so I don't get the hate about this. Sure, the dude comes off as a d**k but as a somewhat of an artist myself, who did get some paid gigs to draw things - after I'm paid, I couldn't care less about what they do with the artwork OR my signature. They want to modify it? Edit it out? Crop and chop it? Burn it in the trash? Fine by me as long as I got my money. (The one thing I wouldn't stand for is for others taking credit for my work but I think that's illegal...) Some people are just too god damn sensitive.
Altering the art in any way is also illegal unless it's part of the deal.
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