
Man Is Shocked To Receive Call From HR Asking For A Reference Check On Notoriously Lazy Ex-Coworker, Doesn’t Hold Back
The thing about any company is that it’ll have its fair share of genuinely hard workers and complete slackers, with a bunch of people who fall somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to pull their weight. And these free-riders can make a lot of their colleagues feel resentful.
Case in point, redditor u/BuddhaMcDonald shared how his former colleague, a complete layabout who he called Ms. Novelreader, tried to get a job reference from him. He recounted the phone call he had with a human resources representative in a hilarious post on r/pettyrevenge.
Bored Panda reached out to workplace expert Lynn Taylor, the author of ‘Tame Your Terrible Office Tyrant’ and the head of the fashion brand ‘Behind the Buckle,’ to better understand why it is that people resent their colleagues so much if they’re slacking, and what can be done about it. Read on for our full interview. Bored Panda also got in touch with u/BuddhaMcDonald and we’ll update the article once we hear back from him.
It’s normal to get mad when your coworkers don’t pull their own weight. Sometimes, it takes karma a while to catch up
Image credits: halfpoint (not the actual photo)
A guy recounted how his lazy ex-coworker said that he’d give her a job reference. Things didn’t turn out as she had hoped
Image credits: KostiantynVoitenko (not the actual photo)
Here’s how the conversation about Ms. Novelreader went between the man and the HR rep
Image credits: BuddhaMcDonald
The HR rep probably didn’t expect to hear the truth about the job candidate
If you search your feelings, you know one thing to be true: you probably dislike those of your coworkers who spend most of their day browsing social media, taking endless coffee breaks, and doing everything they can to avoid work.
The worst part? Probably no one calls them out (because, hey, who wants to start up massive drama at the office?). They end up earning their wage while putting in less effort than you. Frankly, it’s unfair. And it’s all right to get mad.
Equality and a sense of fairness are very important to people, whether we’re talking about office work or school. That’s why many of us (silently) lash out at those in power who pick favorites who they then reward even when they don’t get the results that they should.
Image credits: DragonImages (not the actual photo)
Fairness is something that many employees value in the workplace
According to workplace expert Taylor, the author of ‘Tame Your Terrible Office Tyrant,’ it’s natural to resent colleagues who advance in their career without putting in any extra effort.
“Everyone goes into a work environment believing they’re on a level playing field—and that hard work and results mean success. But unfortunately, that isn’t always the case,” she told Bored Panda.
“Sometimes there doesn’t appear to be any rationale, or visible contribution by the colleague to the business that would warrant raises or promotions.” Meanwhile, favoritism is often the culprit. Unfortunately, for employees, this sort of management practice can be both disheartening and demotivating.
“It creates the sense that it doesn’t matter how hard you work, because politics and connections trump all of that. Consequently, employees don’t see any reason to go the extra mile. And the result is bad for everyone, as productivity plummets,” Taylor said.
Image credits: LightFieldStudios (not the actual photo)
Meanwhile, Bored Panda was interested in some of the potential approaches to dealing with free-riders in the workplace. Workplace expert Taylor shared some of the productive steps that employees can take to tackle these issues, and revealed the pitfalls to avoid as well:
- “One thing you never want to do is approach the person directly. You may start an unnecessary confrontation that will make your productivity ultimately suffer. When you have a grievance you must back it up with facts, otherwise, you might be accused of sour grapes relative to your colleagues’ successes.
- Have you done your homework—that is, is it possible your ‘slacker’ coworker has kept their accomplishments under the radar? Have you consulted other employees who are in the know? Make sure you’re extremely familiar with their activities and contributions (or lack thereof!).
- Depending on your relationship with your boss, try to have a one-on-one, non-threatening discussion, with your facts ready. You might say you love your job, and are always striving to advance. That you don’t like comparing yourself to others, but want to know some specific efforts John is undertaking that you could learn from—and could help you make a greater contribution. Give specific examples of your concerns about the employee, and how it’s impacting the motivation of others. Make it known that this may just be an impression that you and others have (which will help your manager save face). Consider approaching your manager with one or more fellow colleagues who share your view and concerns. There’s power in numbers.
- If approaching your manager fails and the situation is untenable, consider speaking with the HR department, ideally with other supportive coworkers. Just understand that may well get back to your boss and create conflict. The HR department may facilitate your moving to a different role within the company, as one potential outcome.
- Finally, consider whether the situation is so demotivating and seemingly unfair that you would do better in a more equitable corporate culture. For example, are there other things about the job you dislike? Is it time for a change, regardless?
According to Taylor, the author of ‘Tame Your Terrible Office Tyrant,’ there’s a fine line when complaining to your boss about a practice they’re undertaking. As an employee, you have to weigh the risks and rewards.
“In general, it’s better to be open and communicative, than to suffer in silence or just leave. In many ways, you have nothing to lose by voicing your concerns diplomatically, especially in today’s strong employment environment.”
Consistently remind your boss how valuable you are
It can be heartbreaking and demotivating to see someone get promoted for being mediocre and then spend the entire workday, say, reading novels with their feet on their desk. Why bother doing your job well if there’s clearly no link between effort and reward?
The harsh reality is that unfairness is an inevitable part of life. Not everyone who prioritizes their job or burns the midnight oil will get a raise and a cozy corner office. Meanwhile, not everyone who slacks off will get caught and punished for it, for example, if they’re good at pretending to work or know how to butter up their boss with their silver tongue.
Image credits: traimakivan (not the actual photo)
Often, the most powerful weapon when dealing with unfairness is open and honest communication. There’s nothing like shining the spotlight on something that others would prefer to remain in the shadows. If you see that a coworker is clearly being lazy (and rewarded for it), one avenue you can consider is talking to them directly, but this is an extremely risky venture. You could potentially sit down for a quick friendly chat about how their attitude affects everyone at the office. But remember to attack the problem, not the person. Otherwise, they might get defensive and you’ll get nowhere. There’s a lot of potential drama and fallout waiting on the sidelines in this particular case.
Something else to consider is reaching out to your manager or an HR rep about dealing with unfair workloads. We all like to think that our time is valuable. And if we’re going above and beyond the call of duty but going nowhere, but others are getting raises for working less, clearly there’s a disconnect in values.
Nobody’s saying that you should be a snitch, but you have to try and understand what your manager’s position is: maybe they value people skills more than technical ones in their employees. Or maybe they’re not even aware that there’s been a long-term problem.
If that doesn’t work, you can always try creating some space between your work and your private life. Scale back on the overtime. Learn to prioritize. Stop helping your colleagues with their own tasks. Put yourself first. Or, in other words, quiet quit in the sense that you’re doing the work that you’re paid for, without sacrificing your work-life balance if there’s absolutely nothing in it for you.
The fact is that your superiors will probably only notice your extra effort if you consistently draw attention to it. For instance, by meeting up with them for a semi-annual performance review. It’s your job to remind them of how competent you are and how you get great results. If there’s still no positive feedback, consider looking for a company that rewards merit, not just charisma.
However, keep in mind that what matters at the end of the day is whether or not an employee gets the results they need to get. Working more hours isn’t always better. A survey from 2016 found that UK office workers are only productive for 3 hours each day. How long your actual work day is doesn’t matter much. You shouldn’t be burning yourself out and working overtime just because everyone appears to be doing it. The ‘cult of overwork’ is a real thing and it’s not all that effective. As with most things, there’s a balance to be found between effort and rest.
You’ll probably also agree that you can do a bunch more work far more quickly if you’re not constantly multitasking or distracted by others. There’s nothing wrong with reading a novel to reward yourself if you do your job well. But you really need to do your job well! Otherwise, your coworkers will start resenting you.
as I understand it, it is illegal in UK to give a bad reference but you can refuse to give one
In the US you can only confirm employment, not give reasons for termination. Our company lawyer discussed this during a meeting because someone, not a manager, gave info to a potential employer for a former employee.
I think it depends - are you boss/HR giving an employment reference? Then you can only confirm dates and job title. But if they're dumb enough to ask a coworker for a personal reference.... Laissez les bon temps rouler.
Right, my understanding in the US the only specific question an employer can ask is if they would hier the person back. Personal references can say whatever they want since it's expected they were asked before hand (therefore given permission to speak freely) not to mention giving out personal information.
This is true but you can still say things in such a way that the inquiring person gets the message. I had a terrible employee who finally left the company. (he knew he was about to get fired.) I got a call for a reference - I replied "Ohhhhhh YES, I remember HIM.", then didn't say another word. Recruiter said "Oh, thank you!" and hung up. So legally I didn't say anything sue-able, but saved another company from a lazy lying thief.
Tone of voice and inflection can make even help the most neutral legally acceptable statements convey exactly the message you want. “Oh YES, I remember HIM” can mean many different things—-good, bad, or indifferent—-depending on how it’s said.
Like I said, sometimes the managers think they are great....
That only applies if you're the boss, and she's an ex employee of your company. These two were ex co-workers from the past, neither one affiliated with the same company anymore. I LOVE loopholes like this one. I'm hoping sometime in the future I can do this same thing to a co-worker of mine who wields "weaponized incompetence" like a true weapon by destroying equipment and parts because the jobs are hard work and she doesn't want to do it.
That is only true for the company. If you are put down as a personal reference and had no supervisory role over that person, you are free to be as negative as the situation merits (as long as you are honest).
That's a matter of company policy, that's not law.
No, it's a law. If t was just company policy it would be harmful for former employees. Labor laws are a thing.
@mason same in uk. A good thing too
There are no federal laws about what an employer can and can’t release, although there might be state laws. https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-can-employers-say-about-former-employees-2059608
This comment has been deleted.
Wrong. You can not discuss termination reasons if they call to verify employment but if you are listed as a "reference" you can tell the full story.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. It's true, you cannot give a bad reference as employer in UK. It's awful that in the US they find it funny to screw over someone's future employment.
Why shouldn't people be able to be honest? Why on earth would you use as a reference someone who you were a terrible employee for? If someone is bad at a job, particularly if they just don't do any work, shouldn't a potential employer be allowed to learn that?
Because they use it to trap you in your current job. Same as blacklisting abuse or overly restrictive non-compete.
I had a part time job try and cost me a full-time position because the manager didn't want to redo a 6 week schedule she wrote.
It is telling when the company doesnt add something positive to the confirmation of employment that they as a company are allowed to give. However if you are a personal reference and are clear that you are not authorized to speak on the company's behalf you can be completely honest.
Well, if it's in the United States it's illegal. Regardless of what anyone thinks is fair game doesn't change the fact in The United States it's illegal.
What’s illegal?
You know, a quick google will show that you're both dead wrong. Just check gov.uk. As long as your employer can back it up with documentation, they can absolutely give an honest bad reference.
In reply to Snow White - gov.uk is the UK government's website. That is my source.
The documentation can not be disclosed to a new employer as it is covered by gdpr. Yes a as an employer giving a bad reference you might win a lengthy legal battle, but it’s hardly worth it for petty point scoring . Hence why policy tend to stick to dates of employment and role.
You typed a question in Google and yes it comes up with this generic answer. However, it's not what you think. You cannot give a bad opinion as this will be seen as slander/malicious and employee can sue. Employers are now only allowed to provide employment dates as a reference and that's it. Decade dealing with references gives me some insight.
Employers are, former coworkers speaking as a personal reference can say how they truly feel as long as it is honest. You can technically ask your next door neighbor to be a personal reference so there is nothing the former coworker can do as long as you are clear that you arent authorized to speak for the company (only HR is normally).
She said specifically that it needs to be backed up with evidence, which is by definition not slander. You have to be cautious because "x was a thief" is probably libel, but "our till was short only on days this employee was working, by this amount on these days" is not. "X was horrible to work with" is probably libel, but "x received low performance reviews from multiple supervisors and peers according to our records", assuming you have those records, is not. That said, probably most cases are muddy enough that it's better to just let it be someone else's problem than put your neck on the line, but it's still more like the US advice of "if you shoot someone on your property, make sure they die" because of what might come up otherwise than strict illegality.
Companies in U.S. usually only do employment verifications due to fear of being sued. Sometimes ex-employees get around this by listing managers or co-workers as “personal references”. As a manager, I am supposed to kick these requests back to HR for employment verification. A couple of ex-employees that were very nice people but terrible at their job keep putting me as a personal reference, so I get these requests every few months since they can’t keep a job very long. I kick it back to HR every time. But if I really wanted to, I could respond to the references. HR says it is up to me, but highly discouraged. I wouldn’t want to sabotage them from working if they find a good job fit. They were likable people that tried their best, but their best didn’t turn in paperwork the company relies on for revenue. Like, none at all. Despite multiple requests for it. They left voluntarily before getting fired, but employee verification says we would not hire again
The trouble is, the employer holds all the cards there and can block you from further employment, if they have an axe to grind. My former boss hired a consulting company to replace me (after a complete systems overhaul in 6 weeks. 1600 users, all needed to be manually ported to the new system he insisted on, which was incompatible with the old one.) and refused to give me a reference, accusing me of "doing nothing" all summer, piracy and whatnot. This happened after they called me in during my time off, to discuss redundancy. Then the accusations started the week after. (I couldn't prove anything, because the logs had been wiped by his consultancy team while I was on a 2 week holiday!) Later found out the "consultancy firm" was owned by his B-I-L. But yeah, flat out refused to give me a reference. I swear they did it to avoid paying me redundancy, but I couldn't prove it.
It's not 'illegal' to give a bad reference in the UK unless that reference can be shown to be misleading or inaccurate. It IS illegal to make comments about someone's character, etc. So, as a former employer you could, for example, mention warning letters, HR disciplinaries, and so on provided they can back those comments up with the relevant paperwork. You CANNOT say, however, that you didn't like someone, or make many comments about them from a personal perspective. Hope that clears it up. (Source: Gov.co.uk).
I'm pretty sure it's the same, or close to it in the US
In my past work history, the million dollar question was "Would you rehire them?". Wasn't asking about performance, termination, or specifics. But boy did it get the message across.
This is why you ask people before using them as a reference, and always make sure it is someone who you know will give a good one. If you are unsure, have a friend make a fake call and see what they say.
Some guys will tell you that it is ok, and will fabricate their reference of you. I'd have another friend call them and pretend to be from another company to see what they say.
as I understand it, it is illegal in UK to give a bad reference but you can refuse to give one
In the US you can only confirm employment, not give reasons for termination. Our company lawyer discussed this during a meeting because someone, not a manager, gave info to a potential employer for a former employee.
I think it depends - are you boss/HR giving an employment reference? Then you can only confirm dates and job title. But if they're dumb enough to ask a coworker for a personal reference.... Laissez les bon temps rouler.
Right, my understanding in the US the only specific question an employer can ask is if they would hier the person back. Personal references can say whatever they want since it's expected they were asked before hand (therefore given permission to speak freely) not to mention giving out personal information.
This is true but you can still say things in such a way that the inquiring person gets the message. I had a terrible employee who finally left the company. (he knew he was about to get fired.) I got a call for a reference - I replied "Ohhhhhh YES, I remember HIM.", then didn't say another word. Recruiter said "Oh, thank you!" and hung up. So legally I didn't say anything sue-able, but saved another company from a lazy lying thief.
Tone of voice and inflection can make even help the most neutral legally acceptable statements convey exactly the message you want. “Oh YES, I remember HIM” can mean many different things—-good, bad, or indifferent—-depending on how it’s said.
Like I said, sometimes the managers think they are great....
That only applies if you're the boss, and she's an ex employee of your company. These two were ex co-workers from the past, neither one affiliated with the same company anymore. I LOVE loopholes like this one. I'm hoping sometime in the future I can do this same thing to a co-worker of mine who wields "weaponized incompetence" like a true weapon by destroying equipment and parts because the jobs are hard work and she doesn't want to do it.
That is only true for the company. If you are put down as a personal reference and had no supervisory role over that person, you are free to be as negative as the situation merits (as long as you are honest).
That's a matter of company policy, that's not law.
No, it's a law. If t was just company policy it would be harmful for former employees. Labor laws are a thing.
@mason same in uk. A good thing too
There are no federal laws about what an employer can and can’t release, although there might be state laws. https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-can-employers-say-about-former-employees-2059608
This comment has been deleted.
Wrong. You can not discuss termination reasons if they call to verify employment but if you are listed as a "reference" you can tell the full story.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. It's true, you cannot give a bad reference as employer in UK. It's awful that in the US they find it funny to screw over someone's future employment.
Why shouldn't people be able to be honest? Why on earth would you use as a reference someone who you were a terrible employee for? If someone is bad at a job, particularly if they just don't do any work, shouldn't a potential employer be allowed to learn that?
Because they use it to trap you in your current job. Same as blacklisting abuse or overly restrictive non-compete.
I had a part time job try and cost me a full-time position because the manager didn't want to redo a 6 week schedule she wrote.
It is telling when the company doesnt add something positive to the confirmation of employment that they as a company are allowed to give. However if you are a personal reference and are clear that you are not authorized to speak on the company's behalf you can be completely honest.
Well, if it's in the United States it's illegal. Regardless of what anyone thinks is fair game doesn't change the fact in The United States it's illegal.
What’s illegal?
You know, a quick google will show that you're both dead wrong. Just check gov.uk. As long as your employer can back it up with documentation, they can absolutely give an honest bad reference.
In reply to Snow White - gov.uk is the UK government's website. That is my source.
The documentation can not be disclosed to a new employer as it is covered by gdpr. Yes a as an employer giving a bad reference you might win a lengthy legal battle, but it’s hardly worth it for petty point scoring . Hence why policy tend to stick to dates of employment and role.
You typed a question in Google and yes it comes up with this generic answer. However, it's not what you think. You cannot give a bad opinion as this will be seen as slander/malicious and employee can sue. Employers are now only allowed to provide employment dates as a reference and that's it. Decade dealing with references gives me some insight.
Employers are, former coworkers speaking as a personal reference can say how they truly feel as long as it is honest. You can technically ask your next door neighbor to be a personal reference so there is nothing the former coworker can do as long as you are clear that you arent authorized to speak for the company (only HR is normally).
She said specifically that it needs to be backed up with evidence, which is by definition not slander. You have to be cautious because "x was a thief" is probably libel, but "our till was short only on days this employee was working, by this amount on these days" is not. "X was horrible to work with" is probably libel, but "x received low performance reviews from multiple supervisors and peers according to our records", assuming you have those records, is not. That said, probably most cases are muddy enough that it's better to just let it be someone else's problem than put your neck on the line, but it's still more like the US advice of "if you shoot someone on your property, make sure they die" because of what might come up otherwise than strict illegality.
Companies in U.S. usually only do employment verifications due to fear of being sued. Sometimes ex-employees get around this by listing managers or co-workers as “personal references”. As a manager, I am supposed to kick these requests back to HR for employment verification. A couple of ex-employees that were very nice people but terrible at their job keep putting me as a personal reference, so I get these requests every few months since they can’t keep a job very long. I kick it back to HR every time. But if I really wanted to, I could respond to the references. HR says it is up to me, but highly discouraged. I wouldn’t want to sabotage them from working if they find a good job fit. They were likable people that tried their best, but their best didn’t turn in paperwork the company relies on for revenue. Like, none at all. Despite multiple requests for it. They left voluntarily before getting fired, but employee verification says we would not hire again
The trouble is, the employer holds all the cards there and can block you from further employment, if they have an axe to grind. My former boss hired a consulting company to replace me (after a complete systems overhaul in 6 weeks. 1600 users, all needed to be manually ported to the new system he insisted on, which was incompatible with the old one.) and refused to give me a reference, accusing me of "doing nothing" all summer, piracy and whatnot. This happened after they called me in during my time off, to discuss redundancy. Then the accusations started the week after. (I couldn't prove anything, because the logs had been wiped by his consultancy team while I was on a 2 week holiday!) Later found out the "consultancy firm" was owned by his B-I-L. But yeah, flat out refused to give me a reference. I swear they did it to avoid paying me redundancy, but I couldn't prove it.
It's not 'illegal' to give a bad reference in the UK unless that reference can be shown to be misleading or inaccurate. It IS illegal to make comments about someone's character, etc. So, as a former employer you could, for example, mention warning letters, HR disciplinaries, and so on provided they can back those comments up with the relevant paperwork. You CANNOT say, however, that you didn't like someone, or make many comments about them from a personal perspective. Hope that clears it up. (Source: Gov.co.uk).
I'm pretty sure it's the same, or close to it in the US
In my past work history, the million dollar question was "Would you rehire them?". Wasn't asking about performance, termination, or specifics. But boy did it get the message across.
This is why you ask people before using them as a reference, and always make sure it is someone who you know will give a good one. If you are unsure, have a friend make a fake call and see what they say.
Some guys will tell you that it is ok, and will fabricate their reference of you. I'd have another friend call them and pretend to be from another company to see what they say.