“I Was Baffled”: Argument Ensues After Friends Said Man Can’t Take His 5-Year-Old Daughter On Their Annual Fishing Trip
As you probably know, real gentlemen always follow the rules. If the rules do not suit the gentlemen, change the rules. Especially if this is an unwritten rule made in friendly company, which was established many years ago, and which no one has yet violated.
On the other hand, if the rule looks a little obsolete, and it concerns your own children, then who will condemn a person for being formally ready to change this very rule? In fact, this is a common moral dilemma that often confronts many of us.
For example, a man who wrote this post on the AITA Reddit community a few days ago and has since collected almost 19.5K upvotes and over 1.6K different comments. However, this story is actually not as negative as some – and comes with an almost happy ending. Okay, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
More info: Reddit
Image credits: F. Delventhal (not the actual photo)
The Original Poster and his four best friends used to have annual fishing trips
So, for nearly ten years, the Original Poster and his four best friends have taken an annual fishing trip. From the very beginning, they set an unwritten rule for themselves: “no wives, no girlfriends,” and no one has yet violated this rule.
Image credits: u/DaddynDaughterfish
One of the friends took his 5 Y.O. son with him and this was a really great experience
Two years ago, one of the friends, “Tim,” offered to take his five-year-old son on the fishing trip – so that the tradition would spread to a new generation. At that time, out of the entire group, only “Tim” and the OP had children, so the friends gladly accepted this idea. The boy really liked the trip, and the next year he also went with pleasure.
Image credits: u/DaddynDaughterfish
The OP was delighted that their friendly group had a beautiful new tradition
A few months ago, a son was born to another friend in the group, “Randy,” and “Tim” gave “Randy” a fishing pole for the newborn to be given for the boy’s fifth birthday. It turned out very symbolic, and the OP was very pleased with the emerging tradition.
Image credits: u/DaddynDaughterfish
This year, the OP told his friends that he wants his 5 Y.O. daughter to go with them
This time, when a new trip was approaching, the OP told his friends that his daughter, who is now five years old, really wants to go with them, and dad promised the girl to take her fishing. To the OP’s surprise, all his friends looked at him like he’d just said something weird, noting that this would also be a violation of their long-standing rule.
One thing I noticed is that the “friends” were concerned that they would have to stay in a hotel instead of their no-air conditioning cabin. Like, do they think that we are less than boys and can’t survive without air conditioning?!
Yes
"They aren't sexist and horrible! They just assumed girls are weak." -- This guy, basically
Figures someone like Dark Fafnir would speak like a caveman.
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They are weaker then men...its a fact...look at the high risk jobs...all men..but yea women strong...so strong they want to kill their own kids....soooooo strong and brave women are
You don't belong here. You should leave. I normally ignore trolls but get the help you need to behave as a respectable member of society.
If you are talking about the comment by the Dark one, I agree. Women are the most wonderful thing to happen to man. We wouldn't be a species without them.
They are the same, if not stronger. They have the capability to grow a whole new human being, and they get the lining if their reproductive organs ripped out monthly. Men, on the other hand, flinch if their organs are flicked
No, many men think were inferior beings. Yeah but I split a log better than my man who has a foot on me and 90lbs on me. I out fish him and we go several times a week. I out hunt him every single time. I can go without food or water way longer and my endurance matches his. Im not inferior because I mensturate, I am stronger for it. He knows it and is proud of me. That's a man! I outdo most of what he does honestly. You know why? I'm not inferior to any man! Ladies start standing tall! I'm getting my AS in Engineering next fall so suck it men!
For someone like "Dark" is hard to understand women when you've never had one...
Ignore the Dark one. Women are great. And, I say that as a man. Know how I know? I know because my mother was one, and she was great. She raised two men by herself. Where was that so called superior man? Nowhere to be seen, that's where. You see it all the time, single moms. It seems to me that women are the strong ones in the family. RESPECT THEM!!!!
YOU GO GIRL! Congrats on going for your dreams and for having a real Man in your life. Sending you all the good luck I can that you keep on striving and succeeding.
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Wow, swap roles and there'd be no end to the calls of misogyny... Sounds like you're an above average woman with an average guy, why do I have the feeling you'd attack me if I mentioned the same dynamic (though likely more extreme) existed between my wife and I (she's 5 years younger too btw). Different strokes for different folks. BTW... As you'll hopefully learn getting your ENG degree, splitting logs is much more about technique than strength...
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Highly doubt that..but yes keep telling stories..lol..civil engineering...lol let me know when you actually get a job working construction
The second time I went deer hunting, I took my wife. She helped me haul supplies up three ridges carrying more than ⅓ of her body weight the whole time... and then there is that whole creating, carrying, and expelling another human thing. Pretty sure they can hang with the boys.
Exactly! They're not sexist or anything but they're afraid their manly times will be ruined by having a girl there.
There is no Yin without Yang.
Yes, exactly! There is not one thing wrong with not wanting any females around when they want to make something a guys thing. Just like when women want to do girl things with no guys around. It works both ways and there is nothing wrong with that. For crying out loud, let them have their yearly guys only trip! Maybe the mom's can start their own girls only yearly tradition.
We're sensitive little flowers, damn it!
And deeply loved, respected and appreciated by real men.
Lol, real men.
Get one of us Middle-Eastern girls and send her with them,we can survive without air-conditioning much better than them
I think you need to tell that to the M.E. men, they are making awfully negative comments about you. D. F. Is trolling you.
Mhm!
Shes 5!!!! Like, all 5 year olds really like to do is play!! They dont need A/C to sleep or people wouldn't bring their kids to theme parks.
I personally can't survive without a/c but that's due to a rare autoimmune/auto inflammatory disease. I never liked camping, even as a kid. If that's something a child is into however it's really a mess to think at 5 a boy is somehow stronger than a girl🤦♀️. I have an adult son & daughter as well as a 5 year old son. My little one wouldn't last 2 hours in the "wild" but my daughter was crazy into camping & fishing with my stepdad & mom when she was little.
Out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, what is the autoimmune/ auto inflammatory disease? I have RA and one of my best friends has RA, ED, and Sjogrens. She can't stand the heat either, but my body LOVES it. I still hurt a bit, but not nearly as much as in the cold.
Idk wht they were thinking but my family is living proof dat girls can be just as strong as guys and vice versa
I certainly can’t. I would pass on the trip 😂😅
I enjoyed having my girlfriend on my camping trips much better than I did with any man. But, maybe that's just me.😜😘🥴
Same!
That whole “we’re afraid we’d have to stay in a hotel and limit our activities” excuse was malarkey. Even if these guys are all even Boomers (which is doubtful), or definitely GenX and younger (quite likely) they are far too young to actually believe that. What they really wanted to say was; “no females allowed” (like they’re in grade school with a treehouse). I mean, there are Girl Scouts, female hikers and campers, and women in the military for crying out loud! Daddy is a good man, definitely NTA. He honestly did not make the connection that no wives/GFs was clear code for no females period. Otherwise he’d never invited his daughter or stayed in the group. However, in his eagerness to defend his friends after painting the true picture, he’s still letting them off the hook too easily. Not saying he needs to berate them. He definitely does not, because they clearly got the point for this situation. But the guys were (and likely still are) likely sexist as all get out.
Yes I loved camping sleeping on the ground and hunting and fishing 🎣 so why is girl's need ac if that's the woman u now u missed out on the fun
I was a scout when younger (boy scout but we don't differentiate here anymore) and I kept at until I was nineteen despite me becoming more and more "girly". Only reason I stopped was a lack of time. And we'd never go to any hotel just because about half was female. It was tents or shelters we built our selves.
The summer camp I wen to as a teen didn't have air conditioning. I survive. Of course, it was in Maine and way cooler than what I'm used to.
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I think he means more that he doesn't want to go to a hotel, but if she comes he has to, why would they care if she could survive if they didn't care to make the exception
Many women struggle with this yeah, but little girls are less likely to have an issue. Really depends on the girl tho, but her father would know if she can handle it.
That's the first place your head went? You realize the story didn't end there, but with a big mea culpa on their part. It was a guy trip up to that point, maybe they didn't feel comfortable walking around in boxers around his daughter? Very odd "A/C" is your distinguishing factor between a cabin and hotel room; plenty of cabins with fyi, but I see how it fit your narrative. Given the up votes I guess you won the internet here...
I’m glad his friends apologized. It’s quite rare for sexist people.
And quite rare for men, PERIOD!!!
Now you are being sexist. These things go both ways
It’s hard to not be sexist toward the male of our species. They’re obviously inferior.
Bro you can't be sexist to men.
Sure you can, why do think it is so hard for men to get custody over their children?
Sarcasm.
What?
It's sad but true that it's quite rare for a man to get custody of their children. However, I am extremely proud to say that when I met my husband, he was a single dad who had full custody of his 4 children. Sadly, the children's mother hadn''t been in their lives for over 14 years. It was her choice. My husband tried for years to get her to at least call them, but she refused. I'm blessed to say that they are all amazing adults now and we have a great relationship.
Same here. My boyfriend and I have been together a long time and neither of us wants to get married. He raised 6 kids on his own because the mother was too drunk, stoned and mentally ill to take care of them. Only two are his biological kids. I thought all men were losers until I met him. He’s ok but his cooking could improve.
As a man, I disagree (to prove your point right)
I happen to strongly disagree, a real man will apologize for his statement/actions especially if given a sound counterpoint or if they realize later they were wrong. Your referring to feckless man-children you enjoy dating for some reason. Please make that distinction in the future before blanket judging. (And p.s. women don't like admitting therly are wrong either) but kudos to the father for being a stand up man and a dad
Its interesting to see anti-men speech in a discussion about sexism. I'm sure if I made similar blanket statements about women. You'd have me crucified.
It sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulders about women. This is not good.
Speaking of sexism..
Men have no problem apologizing to other men. Significant others in general tend to have problems apologizing to one another, but that is different. In many cases both significant others thoroughly believe they are right and apologizing can be perceived as admitting they were wrong. Sometimes in relationships no one is wrong but both people need to apologize.
Sometimes Lisa, we do deserve your comment. Look at what women had to go through just to get the right to vote. In some countries women are still treated like property, by who? Men!!
So I should be forced to apologize for another country, despite being staunchly against that culture? Cool. Guess I'll also apologize for putin's action in Ukraine, I'll apologize for stalin, for Lenin, hell I'll even apologize for Hitler. Jumping countries for apologies, may as well jump centuries as well, yeah?
Are you dumb? Americans are just as misogynistic
So, I guess you are feeling guilty as a sexist person? Otherwise, what did the apology have to do with you?
So true!
Your irony is dripping
Hahahahahah
For sure!
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Coming from a women
Coming from history and fact. Shat are you, one of those "fake news" pricks?
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Well they would know, wouldn't they? You're sexist.
That's a stupid argument. Generalising an entire gender is sexist, standing up against that isn't. Feminism is a great thing but a good bit of you "Hyperfeminists" go overboard to just being sexist to men. And that's not what feminism is about. And by the way this is coming from a woman.
Edit: I went on a rant and deleted it. As a true feminist, thank you Toast for your comment. Generalizing any group is bad, period. And it's against what Feminism was created for.
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Lmao way to not be accountable by deleting what you said...you thought it so its too late..you'll keep thinking that way im sure
I concur. I was a feminist during the height of the burning bras era. This neo-feminism? I don't claim it. We never put down men. We just wanted the right to be heard and taken seriously. Toxic femininity has tainted that movement. I can no longer use the label. I love men. I won't be a part of anything that tries to degrade or is sexism or misandry. Afterall, I gave birth to one that I simply love with all of my being. And I have more than a few grandsons as well. Not to mention Dad, grandfather, brothers and friends.
Your comment was so well written and resinated with me completely. Thank you
Thats third wave feminists. To my understanding, first wave was "let us vote". Second wave was "let us work". 3rd wave is "let us kick men and ignore their issues because we we're treated right before".
Where did you get all of that out of a dad who wanted to take his little girl fishing with him and his friends? You need to drop the chip of your shoulders.
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Literally all bashing men saying men are sexist..lol...you know why women dont have pockets??? So they dont have to carry any accountability around. Like i want to have unprotected sex and abort all the babies....what strong women
You sound very butthurt.
To be clear, what I deleted was a rant on how I know an intersexed "neo feminist" currently transitioning from masc presenting to femme presenting who does the "All men are evil" bs all the time and how I happen to know men on both sides of the spectrum, and women on both sides of the spectrum.
I'm sorry I don't understand 😭 I don't think I meant to reply to you if I did
That was to the guy trolling the area who made assumptions about what I had erased.
I wouldn't say it was overt sexism. Likely more of a knee-jerk reaction. The one friend had a point that it would be weird needing to take a leak in front of a 5 y/o girl. But as was said, tell her to turn around. Nudity in and of itself is all well and good. So if she doesn't listen, who cares. Just don't start scratching or stroking, it'll be fine.
Etiquette and class is the issue and not sex. If I have to go to the bathroom, I'm not going to stand up and do it in front of my friends, regardless of their sex. I will go somewhere out of their view, but within shouting distance. The sex of the people have absolutely nothing to do with it. Unless of course, you like exposing yourself in front of men. But, that might be another issue altogether.
It was literally sexism
I'm glad that they decided to welcome the daughter. having said that, women do appreciate women-only get togethers and there's nothing necessarily wrong with an all guy weekend fishing trip.
Agreed, but please keep it to the adults and don't exclude a 5 year old girl based on the assumption she'll be lady-sensitive and needs more care than a boy of the same age.
Return to buddies only, that gives everyone the same rule. The 'wheel' came off the wagon when it started with the offspring being included. No females/no children is not any change from 3-4 years ago. When you wish to include/change the trip to extended members, it might be best to have a separate week-end for that population and leave the 'tradition' alone.
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5 yr olds can barely go to the bathroom alone at home....not a place for any kid but especially a girl..if its been adults it should stay adults only
Especially a girl? You're sexist and pathetic. Also there is something wrong with your 5 year olds if they can barely go to the bathroom. My 5 year old has been potty trained for 4 years. Plenty of experience. Probably wipes better than you. They're not spelunking...calm down.
When I was a kid you had to be approved in being able to use the bathroom on your own (by your parents or other caregivers of course) before you could start kindergarten. I'm in the US and of age to have kids of my own if i chose. Is this like an unheard of thing (now)?
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Yes in the United States it is practically unheard of to premeditatively choose to have children.
If you don't know anyone who plans to have a family, you don't talk to anyone lol. Go outside instead of running your mouth.
Exactly what I was thinking. Especially a girl? That guy has issues. He was probably raised among a certain religion that treat women as inferior and property. It was likely a woman who changed his diapers and took care of him, made sure he was fed, and kept him safe. He needs to appreciate women and not degrade them. The same goes for that religion. Women should not have to live in shame in that religion. Both sexes should practice humility to the same degree. If women have to cover themselves, men should too. They are equally loved in God's eye.
I agree not appropriate
I actually don't see an issue with the concept of "no significant others". Regardless of gender, SOs intruding on a friend's outing can do weird things like compete for attention. Or they might have so much fun they want to continue the trip after the relationship is over. I also can get behind "no children". But to bring sons while excluding daughters, that's some b******t. Glad they sorted it out.
The concept was fine until the whole sexist excuse of “we’d have to stay in a hotel and limit our activities argument.” If they’d said, this is a dudes only tradition, it would have just come off as a guys’ trip/weekend tradition.I like what someone else said, leave it at buddies only, including excluding offspring - boy or girl. That stops any misunderstanding, hurt feelings or accusations.
The problem was, they didn't say men only. They didn't say no girls. They said no wives and no girlfriends.
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But the little girl will be a woman one day... By including her it takes a male binding day and turns it into a family outing. It's ok to be upset at changing that dynamic
I'm sorry, I must have got something crazy in my ear. When they included the boy kid it turned into a family outing not when they try to include a girl kid. Also, again it wasn't a no women trip, or at least that's not what was explicitly stated, it was no wives/girlfriends.
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You seem to be missing the fact that the boy kid is still a boy, so it would still be said male bonding day, saying otherwise is similiar to saying that gender specific events can't include children at all, so things like girl scoots our boy scouts, or an all dudes fishing trip, or an all girls fishing trip, shouldn't include children
Naw if that's what I'm into I'm coming to hell with guys and girls s**t. I love fishing and have tattoos of fishing and do it 4 days a week. I'm better than most men! If a woman or girl is passionate about a "guy" activity she will go! We don't play that in my husband's and I families. Nope! My husband will go opening day of hunting with his dad which is tradition but I always get invited and turn it down for respect of father son time. But I go every other time and am the only female there. Not every woman wants to go to the salon and spa for a day while the "men" hunt and fish and drink beer. I want to be hunting, fishing and drinking beer. Nothing wrong with a all guys fishing trip at all, no. But if a woman wants in, she goes too! To hell with gender norms! I'm a straight married woman and I love dude stuff! I hate nail salons and dress shopping. Not everyone is girly girl and if they wish to be included, they should be.
Agreed. A group of male friends I always hang out with (we go riding together with horse drawn carts every weekend) used to go on a 'no women allowed vacation' every year. They are from an older generation. My boyfriend started joining us, and they were all planning the holiday together. Because I am normally part of the team, helping out with the horses when something goes wrong and I pull my own weight, it was suddenly a question if I should come. I told them they needn't feel obligated to ask me with them, I understand they'd want a boys weekend. They were adamant on me coming though, seeing as a was first a member of the crew before my BF and they value my companionship. I have been coming along ever since. When securing our carts to our trailer, I was the only one who knew how lashing straps work. We had a good laugh about it, same when I'm always the one cooking. They wouldn't have it any other way now, I've been joining them for years now
Yes, but they didn't say, "boys only", which would have been clear
I sure as hell hate it when I am invited to female only -events 😬 I have a husband, cool adult son, brothers and nephews and male friends, and no reason to feel any safer with someone just because they too have breasts -or leave one out of the sewing club if they don't have a pair.
Good point. Girls night out is fine too. But, I think male bonding is over exaggerated. The most important thing for a man is getting comfortable with a females presence, not other men. This whole trip with the daughter will most benefit the other guys young son. He will learn that women are no different than men in most ways, and he will be taught important etiquette when around women and girls. Like not farting in front of them or being vulgar. Just showing some class around women and being nice to them. These are important lessons for young men to learn.
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Agreed, and i dont want to imagine a girl alone in the woods with 8 drunk men. Not saying drinking is involved. But fishing and drinking go hand in hand. And one problem drinker or dishonest person , and shes been molested.
I'm sure most people don't hang out with child molesters and I'm sure her dad will keep an eye on her.. it's weird you thought about that
Not everyone knows what goes on behind closed doors just saying!
What? So they're pedophiles now? Also, little boys don't get molested? O_o
Not everyone drinks so that's not a reason to no take your daughter fishing
One thing I noticed is that the “friends” were concerned that they would have to stay in a hotel instead of their no-air conditioning cabin. Like, do they think that we are less than boys and can’t survive without air conditioning?!
Yes
"They aren't sexist and horrible! They just assumed girls are weak." -- This guy, basically
Figures someone like Dark Fafnir would speak like a caveman.
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They are weaker then men...its a fact...look at the high risk jobs...all men..but yea women strong...so strong they want to kill their own kids....soooooo strong and brave women are
You don't belong here. You should leave. I normally ignore trolls but get the help you need to behave as a respectable member of society.
If you are talking about the comment by the Dark one, I agree. Women are the most wonderful thing to happen to man. We wouldn't be a species without them.
They are the same, if not stronger. They have the capability to grow a whole new human being, and they get the lining if their reproductive organs ripped out monthly. Men, on the other hand, flinch if their organs are flicked
No, many men think were inferior beings. Yeah but I split a log better than my man who has a foot on me and 90lbs on me. I out fish him and we go several times a week. I out hunt him every single time. I can go without food or water way longer and my endurance matches his. Im not inferior because I mensturate, I am stronger for it. He knows it and is proud of me. That's a man! I outdo most of what he does honestly. You know why? I'm not inferior to any man! Ladies start standing tall! I'm getting my AS in Engineering next fall so suck it men!
For someone like "Dark" is hard to understand women when you've never had one...
Ignore the Dark one. Women are great. And, I say that as a man. Know how I know? I know because my mother was one, and she was great. She raised two men by herself. Where was that so called superior man? Nowhere to be seen, that's where. You see it all the time, single moms. It seems to me that women are the strong ones in the family. RESPECT THEM!!!!
YOU GO GIRL! Congrats on going for your dreams and for having a real Man in your life. Sending you all the good luck I can that you keep on striving and succeeding.
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Wow, swap roles and there'd be no end to the calls of misogyny... Sounds like you're an above average woman with an average guy, why do I have the feeling you'd attack me if I mentioned the same dynamic (though likely more extreme) existed between my wife and I (she's 5 years younger too btw). Different strokes for different folks. BTW... As you'll hopefully learn getting your ENG degree, splitting logs is much more about technique than strength...
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Highly doubt that..but yes keep telling stories..lol..civil engineering...lol let me know when you actually get a job working construction
The second time I went deer hunting, I took my wife. She helped me haul supplies up three ridges carrying more than ⅓ of her body weight the whole time... and then there is that whole creating, carrying, and expelling another human thing. Pretty sure they can hang with the boys.
Exactly! They're not sexist or anything but they're afraid their manly times will be ruined by having a girl there.
There is no Yin without Yang.
Yes, exactly! There is not one thing wrong with not wanting any females around when they want to make something a guys thing. Just like when women want to do girl things with no guys around. It works both ways and there is nothing wrong with that. For crying out loud, let them have their yearly guys only trip! Maybe the mom's can start their own girls only yearly tradition.
We're sensitive little flowers, damn it!
And deeply loved, respected and appreciated by real men.
Lol, real men.
Get one of us Middle-Eastern girls and send her with them,we can survive without air-conditioning much better than them
I think you need to tell that to the M.E. men, they are making awfully negative comments about you. D. F. Is trolling you.
Mhm!
Shes 5!!!! Like, all 5 year olds really like to do is play!! They dont need A/C to sleep or people wouldn't bring their kids to theme parks.
I personally can't survive without a/c but that's due to a rare autoimmune/auto inflammatory disease. I never liked camping, even as a kid. If that's something a child is into however it's really a mess to think at 5 a boy is somehow stronger than a girl🤦♀️. I have an adult son & daughter as well as a 5 year old son. My little one wouldn't last 2 hours in the "wild" but my daughter was crazy into camping & fishing with my stepdad & mom when she was little.
Out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, what is the autoimmune/ auto inflammatory disease? I have RA and one of my best friends has RA, ED, and Sjogrens. She can't stand the heat either, but my body LOVES it. I still hurt a bit, but not nearly as much as in the cold.
Idk wht they were thinking but my family is living proof dat girls can be just as strong as guys and vice versa
I certainly can’t. I would pass on the trip 😂😅
I enjoyed having my girlfriend on my camping trips much better than I did with any man. But, maybe that's just me.😜😘🥴
Same!
That whole “we’re afraid we’d have to stay in a hotel and limit our activities” excuse was malarkey. Even if these guys are all even Boomers (which is doubtful), or definitely GenX and younger (quite likely) they are far too young to actually believe that. What they really wanted to say was; “no females allowed” (like they’re in grade school with a treehouse). I mean, there are Girl Scouts, female hikers and campers, and women in the military for crying out loud! Daddy is a good man, definitely NTA. He honestly did not make the connection that no wives/GFs was clear code for no females period. Otherwise he’d never invited his daughter or stayed in the group. However, in his eagerness to defend his friends after painting the true picture, he’s still letting them off the hook too easily. Not saying he needs to berate them. He definitely does not, because they clearly got the point for this situation. But the guys were (and likely still are) likely sexist as all get out.
Yes I loved camping sleeping on the ground and hunting and fishing 🎣 so why is girl's need ac if that's the woman u now u missed out on the fun
I was a scout when younger (boy scout but we don't differentiate here anymore) and I kept at until I was nineteen despite me becoming more and more "girly". Only reason I stopped was a lack of time. And we'd never go to any hotel just because about half was female. It was tents or shelters we built our selves.
The summer camp I wen to as a teen didn't have air conditioning. I survive. Of course, it was in Maine and way cooler than what I'm used to.
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I think he means more that he doesn't want to go to a hotel, but if she comes he has to, why would they care if she could survive if they didn't care to make the exception
Many women struggle with this yeah, but little girls are less likely to have an issue. Really depends on the girl tho, but her father would know if she can handle it.
That's the first place your head went? You realize the story didn't end there, but with a big mea culpa on their part. It was a guy trip up to that point, maybe they didn't feel comfortable walking around in boxers around his daughter? Very odd "A/C" is your distinguishing factor between a cabin and hotel room; plenty of cabins with fyi, but I see how it fit your narrative. Given the up votes I guess you won the internet here...
I’m glad his friends apologized. It’s quite rare for sexist people.
And quite rare for men, PERIOD!!!
Now you are being sexist. These things go both ways
It’s hard to not be sexist toward the male of our species. They’re obviously inferior.
Bro you can't be sexist to men.