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I Document How People Protest The New Law That Bans Abortion In Poland (40 Pics)
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On Wednesday, thousands of women went out to march against a new law that bans abortion. The protests have been going on for 7 days, with no apparent end in sight.
Like many other Polish cities, Krakow's streets are full of angry people who want to make a change to this injustice. Here is my photoreportage covering it. The protesters have chosen the symbol of red lightning, used red and white-colored makeup and signs of red hoods, which represent the series Handmaid's Tale, in which the authoritarian state violates the rights of women.
Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the ruling Law and Justice party leader, has called on his supporters to "defend Poland" against protesters that want to "destroy the nation." Things have been escalating rapidly, and riot police were deployed a day ago. Many critics call the use of such martial methods undemocratic and unfair to its citizens, to say the least.
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"So bad that even introverts came out"
Law and Justice (PiS) is suspicious.
"#Striking women
Hope your d**k steps on a LEGO"
"#Women's hell"
"Rights for people with uterus"
"A drunk"
"My p***y is not Jarusia's (Jaroslaw Kaczynski's)"
"This government topples women over"
-I should be Paying attention to the protest, but I was looking at that Headless Pigeon @v@-
Those 8 stars are a symbol for "f**k PiS" ( jebać PiS) PiS is a ruling party
"wypie***j/wypie***ć" means "go the f**k out" and it's the most common slogan during those protests. it's rude, but, well, everybody knew "kurwa" one before... it may be your second polish word, congrats.
I'm almost sure I'm translating this incorrectly, since it has two idioms in it, but it's more or less something like: "The women are upset: 'Oh, the curse on the Duck!'". (It's a word-play: 'Kaczka' - Duck - is an allusion to "Kaczyński", last name of Polish politic). Also, the slogan is a quote from poem written by Jan Brzechwa.
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Little smiling photographer from Cracow, Poland.
Company owner, working for the biggest e-commerce company in Poland.
This dude right here? He works as a Community Manager at Bored Panda. Has no back-story, cause his spine works just fine. He writes about himself in third-person, and in first-person about others. Fell in love with storytelling and cannot let that love go. Now, he's here to help you make your own story simply beautiful. Secretly makes cute music samples and writes stories in the dark that nobody has ever heard of before.
Read more »I was appalled when I heard about this. The thing is no law will ever prevent abortions, it will just stop SAFE abortions. We women are humans not breeding machines and deserve to have the right over our own bodies. Men should not have a say in what we can do to our bodies and should not be able to have a vote on the matter. That is not their right.
EXACTLY. When you ban a safe medical procedure, you have women risking their lives and health with alternatives. It's 2020, those risks do not need to be taken.
THIS. Thank you for making that point. Women are never going to stop controlling our own bodies, so instead of trying to take the control away from us, make it so that we do it safely. If you can't give birth, you should stop telling us to do do.
I agree. People like the orange man in the white house think that us women are just baby generators and he thinks he can control us.
You are so right....and the men most responsible for pushing Polish politicians to take away women's rights are presumably celibate ......... the clergy. They might be reminded , regarding a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy that the official position of the church from medieval times to the mid 1800's was that of St. Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas . Aquinas said "The rational soul ought to be united to a body, which may be a suitable organ of sensation ......before the body has organs (can survive on its own), it cannot be receptive of the soul."
What do you mean by that? If sex is consensual and pregnancy is agreed upon by both parties then yes. if sex is consensual but pregnancy is not agreed upon then both parties need to keep in mind that zero contraception is 100% effective so there is a risk that the woman can still become pregnant. If they go through with sex knowing the risks then they also need to consider what will happen in that case, whether to go through with the pregnancy or whether to abort it or adopt it out. The man can have a say but in the end the decision is solely the females.
I agree with most of this, but ... it takes two to get pregnang ... a caring father, or father-to-be, one who really is engaged in it by all means possible ... shouldn't be out of the decision. On some kind of other, but not opposed hand ... the first few months this literally are just some cells - no one should be taking action in an imagined interest of cells! There's at least three months there is no other entity than the pregnant woman (and, in case he's of the abovementioned kind) to be taken into consideration - there is no "Baby" at that time! Pro-Life isn't pro any other life, let alone any actual life, so ... I feel like I'm obliged to agree you in being one from the other side, which I consider the right side here (pro choice). But ... a father of who really cares ... shouldn't be not-heard-from in case anything wrong with the fetus is the reason this comes up in the first place. The LAST word, anyway ... your body, your choice!
Of course the father should/can have an input but in the end the decision is the woman’s to make.
I can't answer an answer's answer here ... of course, a father who doesn't care, shouldn't be asked. I think this is clear... The pure medical reasons don't really consist of a choice. Making this illegal basically demands risking one's own life, and therefore, every decent country should have some superior law, a higher-ranking one, that garuantees freedom from any prosecution in these cases. Poland is in the EU; the EU has a court for human rights violations - maybe that's where this is to be taken ... to force the government to correct their shenenigans (they're kinda ... well, what to say, they suck at everything...).
He might just think unborn children are people though. But idk we can't know his thoughts.
Thinking of unborn children in the first place is a bit weird, misconception of words - children ALWAYS are born in one way or another. But, that aside, at least the first 20 or 30 weeks, there is no potential to even remotely and vague have any kind of feeling in a fetus. None, proven to not exist - at least this time, there is no reason to even take the fetus' interests (or whatever one thinks are their interest) into any account when having to make a decision. Also, that this decision often is described as hard, to me, seems a result of forcing guilt on those who had abortions, literally for no damage they ever did, literally forcing them to feel the guilt nevertheless. Whoever cares about a fetus should at least be a vegetarian, as any grown up animal (well, kind of) feels a lot more during slaughter than that cluster of mere cells in a human body does. If it weren't a sign of bad taste, one might even cook a soup of these without causing any real bad of any kind by any means.
Doesn’t matter, that may be his belief but that doesn’t give him (or anyone) the right to decide what a woman does to her body.
Finally! I was waiting for some kind of article about situation in Poland and I'm SO happy it was finally published! Let the world know what happened in our country!
Enuya I like in the UK and this is the first I have heard about it, so sad the BBC and other news outlets have not reported it. I stand with My Polish sisters.
Some countries are making giant steps into the past...Wehn I was born, in Germany a woman couldn't have her own bank account without the approuval of her husband... her husband could force her to quit her job when he thought that her work had a negative impact on the housekeeping...
It's so awful, sad, and unfair! 😣 Unthinkable in the 21st century. Every person should have a right to choose what to do with their own body!
TheSneakyNinja, Firstly a foetus is not a child, it is developing to become a child but is not a child/person. So an abortion is not killing a child or a person. Secondly you cannot compare the laws of someone killing a living and breathing person to a foetus. A living person has friends, family, personality, identity, memories and awareness. A foetus has none of those. Thirdly saying a women should not have created a child is extremely ignorant, the woman doesn’t just CHOOSE to fall pregnant and it happens, 1 in 100 pregnancies is the result of contraception failure. So people do take precautions, it’s just ZERO contraception is 100% effective. Lastly just because you say the child should be treated with love and care doesn’t mean it works, just look at the cases of neglect, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, parents murdering their children etc. Women being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term can cause resentment and hate towards the child which can lead to abuse.
(3) I would also like to say that you are entitled to your belief that abortions are wrong etc BUT you and everyone else have NO right to enforce that belief on another woman. If you don’t want an abortion then don’t have one, simple. But preventing others from having safe abortions should NEVER be a choice for you or anyone else to make, only the individual it affects and the medical professional. Not your uterus, not your body, not your choice.
(2) I know that if my mum was pregnant with me and she didn’t want me I would rather be aborted than live in care with the possibility of never having love, home or a family. If I was aborted I wouldn’t even care because I wouldn’t have a clue what was going on anyway. Regarding the twins, they are both human coz I have not said they aren’t human. BUT Amy was a person and sentient being 87 days before Kate was a person and sentient being. I don’t know where you got 100,000 of children needing adoption because that is incorrect. There is estimated that there are between 143 million-210 million children needing adoption worldwide. Imagine adding at least 50 millions more children annually if no abortions were done. We don’t have enough resources for the children we already have let alone adding millions more to the mix. Over 14 million children age out of the system, never being adopted, having no family or home and 10-15% of children in care commit suicide before they turn 18.
TheSneakyNinja, (1) you are contradicting yourself. You say you aren’t suggesting no one ever have sex again if they don’t want kids but also say that if you don’t want kids then don’t have sex. That is just ridiculous. Abortion doesn’t harm children because a foetus is not a child by definition. A child is a person from birth to teenager. Again I never said a foetus is not human, I said it is not a person, again different, look up the definition on that too. You also say you want children to be cared for after birth but just because you say that doesn’t mean it happens. In the ideal world EVERY child would be cared for but that is not always the case. Yes everyone has a risk of suffering in life, I don’t deny that but if every foetus was aborted in case of suffering then that is the end of human civilisation. The fact is there is not enough resources, families etc to deal with all the kids currently needing adoption without adding MILLIONS more.
You cannot alway CHOOSE to not get pregnant just like you can’t CHOOSE when you fall pregnant. As I have said countless times 1 in 100 pregnancies occur because of contraception failure. When a woman is raped they too don’t CHOOSE to fall pregnant. Sorry but I think I may have missed where I wrote a foetus isn’t human, I have said a foetus isn’t a person or a sentient being. Most of what I am saying is based on logic like adoption, abuse, abortion statistics, contraception failures, the reality of life for an unwanted child, the fact abortions will never stop, it will just be unsafe abortions and more. You are ignoring most of my points and mainly focussing on the foetus and not really showing any care for a child once it is born. You are not pro-life, you are pro-birth. As long as an unwanted child is born that is the main thing right? Who cares what happens to the child afterwards hey.
Abortions aren’t done at 30weeks gestation except in SUPER RARE situations where the womans or foetuses life is at risk. Just because a woman is pregnant doesn’t mean the woman is the family of the foetus, she is a vessel and is only family if the woman chooses. That is what I mean and makes perfect sense. Because that part of the brain is not developed when abortions are done that the foetus has no cognitive ability to understand. The difference between you and me is that I am looking at abortions from a logical and realistic stand point and you are looking at it from an emotional stand point.
Do you seriously think that abstinence is realistic, especially in a long term relationship. Sex is not just about procreation, it is also a way to bond with a partner. I am not going the next 20 years without sex with my husband just because I might fall pregnant. That is just ludicrous. I believe that once it is born it can survive outside the womb then it is a person. A foetus is a seperate person when it is born. For example, If a woman is killed in most countries whilst 3 weeks pregnant it isn’t called a double homicide because a foetus is not considered a legal person. Unless the foetus is born and survives momentarily before succumbing to it’s injuries then yes that is double homicide. But if the foetus dies in utero then no. A foetus is considered viable from 24 weeks gestation and onwards, so when majority of abortions are done the foetus isn’t viable anyway. Foetuses do not have memories, tell me do you or do you know ANYONE who remembers being inside a woman’s womb?
About the image you showed I don’t think anything of it, I have had kids so I know the process. Here are some truths you may not be aware of. A foetus has no pain receptors when it is aborted, it also has no awareness to know they are being aborted. When majority of abortions are done the foetus couldn’t survive outside the womb anyway. Are you aware of the mental, emotional, physical and financial toll having a baby brings? A large proportion of children are abused in foster/state care with so many kids ageing out of the system never having a loving home or any sort of family. The resources in the foster care system is stretched to the limits already and the major issues with adding millions more children to the system if no abortions were done is astronomical with a great deal of risk. Many children in care end up turning to crime, drugs and ending up homeless or in jail. There are millions of children who suffer/have suffered in the care system going from home to home with no love or stability. So many unwanted children are also bought up in poverty and with parents with severe drug problems, which can cause foetus drug/alcohol syndrome (look up the symptoms). The fact is you are not being realistic, raising a child isn’t all puppies and rainbows, it is hard work and can take it’s toll. I love my kids more than life itself but they are bloody hard work. Having kids shouldn’t be taken lightly.
In an ideal world women would get pregnant when they choose too but unfortunately that is not always the case. I a, on the most reliable contraception on the market (still not 100% effective) BUT the side effects are awful, I just deal with the side effects because the idea of me falling pregnant fills me with great anxiety. I have told my husband that if my contraception fails I WILL be getting an abortion. I have 2 kids with disabilities, I suffer severe mental health issues and chronic stress. I should not have the burden of following through with an unwanted pregnancy just because some people say so. Not your body, not your life, not your choice. If you don’t want an abortion then easy, don’t have one but you have no right to force your beliefs onto others, especially if you have no idea what the woman is going through. A child is not a temporary thing, a child doesn’t effect a woman or her family temporarily. Having a child changes life DRAMATICALLY and a woman’s body.
(4) I recently had a pregnancy scare even though I am on contraception. I was freaking out and because it was late at night when I realised all my symptoms pointed to pregnancy, it was too late to buy a pregnancy test. So I didn’t get much sleep that night. I kept running through my head what if I am too far along for the abortion medication? What if I can’t access an abortion etc? I then started running things through my mind on how I could give myself an abortion if I couldn’t get it done safely. I thought about stabbing myself in the stomach, buying some long knitting needles, purposefully falling down stairs, jumping in front of a car, getting someone to punch me as hard as possible in the abdomen etc. But then logic stepped in and I realised I live in a country where I have access to safe abortions so I don’t need to think about that stuff. But that just goes to show what someone will do out of desperation. You will NEVER stop abortions, EVER.
(3) How would you stop someone from having an abortion anyway, it’s not like the woman tells everyone that she is pregnant and going to have an abortion and even if you fought for abortions being illegal you STILL can’t stop a woman from having an abortion coz she will just 1. go to another country to get it done or 2. do an unsafe backyard abortion. This study from 2009 says around 62,000 women died from unsafe abortions which is one of the leading causes of maternal mortality (13%) and around 5 million suffer long-term health complications. According to WHO every 8 minutes a woman will die from an unsafe abortion. Some risks include severe hemorrhage, sepsis, poisoning, uterine perforation, or damage to other internal organs. It also increases the risk of incomplete abortions resulting in a deformed/significantly disabled baby. So making abortions legal and safe is vital, not just for the woman but for her loved ones and the foetus.
(2) Abortion is not killing a child because a child by definition is someone between the ages of birth and teenager. Check the definition yourself if you don’t believe me. You say abortion hurts people, but do you understand that pregnancy also hurts people? Why is an unborn foetus more important than me? Is my life so insignificant? Me being pregnant will not just hurt me but it would also hurt my living children, why is it okay to hurt living and breathing people but it’s not okay to abort a foetus that has no feelings or awareness? That is just bullshit and a bit sadistic. A moment that it takes for an abortion can prevent a lifetime of pain for the foetus (for many reasons), the woman and the people around her. You can’t call yourself pro-life because you don’t care about the life of others, only the unborn. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to stop someone from having an abortion, you have absolutely NO idea what that person is going through. It is none of your bloody business.
TheSneakyNinja (1) They are YOUR beliefs and you are entitled to them but you are not entitled to force them onto someone else. YOU may believe abortions are killing a child but that does not mean YOUR belief is the right one. I am not saying that people with the opposite belief is the right one coz it is just that-a belief. You do not have the right to take away a womans choice. And again you say a woman can prevent pregnancy well they can take preventions and still fall pregnant, what part of that do you not understand? Being abstinence forever is just not realistic. I feel like a broken record coz you are asking the same questions in which I have already given answers for. Standing up for the rights of a living and breathing child is completely different so I don’t understand why you keep bringing that up. I never said one is sentiment and one is not, I said sentient. Sentient means able to perceive or feel things, a foetus is NOT a sentient being but a child IS.
(4) Despite what you feel about possibly being pregnant, that does not make a difference in whether or not the child in the womb is a person. Feelings don't get to decide whether or not someone is human. Which is why I though we should discuss what makes a person a person. You have talked about consciousness, society's definitions, and birth so I am not exactly sure when you think the baby in the womb is a person. And it's true that I probably won't be able to stop all abortions from happening. After all, theft, rape, murder, arson, and assault all still happen despite there being laws against all of those things. However, there would likely be less abortions and at least society would be trying to stop them. Once again, whether or not people do something illegally does not decide whether or not what they are doing it wrong.
(3) I do not know why you keep using this argument. I will try to show you again why it does not make sense. Chicago had 492 murders in 2019. Obviously, murders are still happening despite the laws. Does that mean we should make murder legal? Of course not. The reason why this argument does not make any sense is that just because people disobey laws that does not mean we should do away with those laws. If you kill someone, (which is what abortion is) and you hurt yourself in the process, that does not mean we should make killing people legal. No doubt we should do something to help those people (which is exactly what the group of pro-life people I am with do-it's not offering abortion though) but that does not mean we should allow them to do terrible things.
(2) Definitions people in society have made are not always correct. You make not think so, but consider this: Homosexuality was defined as a mental illness for years. I know pregnancy hurts people. However, like I stated before, you don't have to choose to create a baby. I know you don't consider that realistic. However, you are acting like it is somehow impossible to not create a child. Other people's lives do matter of course. Just because I am fighting for children not to be killed does not mean I don't care about other people. You are acting like women have no other option than abortion to not have babies. And that isn't realistic, even if you dislike the other options. Once, again, I am doing things for other people. However, this conversation is about abortion and that is why I am talking about abortion. Consciousness is developing in the womb at the 24th and 28th weeks of gestation. Are you saying that consciousness determines person hood? Before you said birth does.
(1/2) Evidently you did not understand and thought it was an argument. Also, it is about five to six weeks that brain activity begins to occur. You said, "BUT Amy was a person and sentient being 87 days before Kate was a person and sentient being." You have to admit that this doesn't make sense. If you think it does, how does it make sense?
(1/2) I know you feel like this is forcing a belief on someone else. However, EVERY SINGLE LAW in America is technically forcing a belief on someone else. Making a law against murdering people is not wrong even if people disagree with it. Like I said before, I am only saying that it is an option for women to be abstinent to not have a child because you said: "Thirdly saying a women should not have created a child is extremely ignorant, the woman doesn’t just CHOOSE to fall pregnant and it happens, 1 in 100 pregnancies is the result of contraception failure." I was clarifying that she could also choose not to have sex because you said she could not CHOOSE to fall pregnant. Yes, she couldn't choose to FALL pregnant but then again she could have just chosen not have sex. It's not really an argument it's just pointing out that it is not impossible for women not to have children. I only brought up the example with the five-year-old to help you to understand why I am trying to stop abortion...
(3) Is also why I was trying to talk about when a child in the womb is a person or not. I thought we should talk about that since I think it is a person and you don't so we should try to understand each other about that and try to come to an agreement. Because according to my beliefs, even though abuse and bad fostor care and the mother's struggles exist that won't change the fact that abortion in it of itself is wrong as it is the killing of an innocent child. So that is why I think we should talk about that and at what point does the child in a womb becomes a person. Of course, if you don't want to you don't have to. But to get anywhere that is probably necessary. Thank you for talking btw. :)
(3) The thing is, abortion hurts people. It kills children. It is never safe. So of course I would try to stop it. I'll try to see if you can understand why I am doing this. Since you only consider children that are born to be people, if five-year-olds were being killed on a daily basis by their parents, wouldn't you try to stop it? Even if they were in abusive homes or in foster care? Wouldn't you be trying to stop that or would you just let it happen? That is what this is like to (most) pro-life people. Of course, there are a few who just want to control women's bodies. But the reason why I am fighting against abortion is that I do not think anyone should choose if an innocent child lives or dies according to their preference.
(2) I meant person and sorry about the confusion. Why is one sentiment and why was the other not? That doesn't make sense. They were in the same stages of development. And as I explained before, that statistic was for one country regarding a certain group. I should not have been so specific. Once again, when you talk about how resources are limited, that doesn't mean that abortion is okay. It's a problem, to be sure, but it does not justify the killing of children.
I was talking about the children waiting for adoption in the U.S. in foster care. Sorry about the confusion. In response to (1), I said that because you talked about how women get pregnant sometimes because of failed contraception. I was just pointing out that they still could have avoided getting pregnant. I think you are saying that the child in the womb isn't a child because that's the definition that many countries have set right now. Sorry that I used human instead of person. I don't always say things the right way but I think you know what I meant. I know that just saying something doesn't mean it happens. I guess that what I am trying to say is that while abuse and other stuff happen, it does not make abortion right. Even though a child might experience terrible things, that doesn't make killing them right. Because something bad might happen to someone, that doesn't make doing something else bad to them okay. Do you understand what I mean?
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I also think you did not respond to this: "You say that you are looking at this from a logical standpoint. How is it logical to say that a child in the womb is only human once it is born? Twins Amy and Kate Elliot were born 87 days apart. Amy was born prematurely on June 1, 2012, and Kate followed on August 27. According to your logic, one was a human 87 days before the other. Also, why does dependency determine humanity? After all, a baby can't even survive by itself outside the womb."
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Also, ANYONE who is born has a chance of being harmed sometime in the future. That isn't a reason to kill them. 1 out of 5 women have experienced completed or attempted rape. Does that mean we should kill all women because we could potentially be raped sometime in the future? No. We should build a society where that is unacceptable and punish any offenders. If something bad might happen to someone that does not mean you can kill them.
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My issue with abortion is that I think the child is human and deserves rights. The question is, do they deserve the same rights, and why? That is why I am trying to focus on the child. I think it is a person at conception. The DNA and all the genetic information that makes them human is there at that moment and from that point forward they are growing and developing. Abuse is terrible and the foster system isn't doing too well either. It saddens me that not only do we have those issues but that we also have to deal with the killing of thousands of unborn children. 100,000 children in foster care are currently waiting for adoption, 678,000 children were abused in 2018, and thousands of abortions are performed every year. Each of these issues is important. We should be trying to stop all of them. I don't think that a child being born is the only thing that matters.
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Uh... I actually said that I wanted children to be cared for after birth and stuff like that. I think that is what people should be focusing on, not trying to kill them. My family actually does that as we sponsor several children. We can't adopt or foster though since our family has a lot of kids in it. Abortion is just one of the things in this world that causes harm to children. Rape is a terrible thing, no doubt. However, it is not the cause of most abortions and is in fact the reason for 1% of them. It doesn't make sense for you to use that argument as you believe that abortion is okay in any circumstances. Unless you are arguing that abortion is only fine in cases of rape. 1 in 100 pregnancies are caused by contraception failures. However, I don't consider that grounds to kill a child as the parents could have just chosen not to have sex in the first place. Also, it isn't the child's fault that they were created.
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I'm not saying that someone has to be abstinent for a relationship for the rest of their lives. I am only saying that you can choose to not get pregnant. I also said short-term memory. The laws that don't count killing a pregnant mother as a double homicide can't be used as an argument since laws aren't always right. You say that you are looking at this from a logical standpoint. How is it logical to say that a child in the womb is only human once it is born? Twins Amy and Kate Elliot were born 87 days apart. Amy was born prematurely on June 1, 2012, and Kate followed on August 27. According to your logic, one was a human 87 days before the other. Also, why does dependency determine humanity? After all, a baby can't even survive by itself outside the womb.
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I know that having a child is a huge sacrifice. Kids are a lot of work. The truth is, we women can choose not to have sex in the first place. Even if contraception is not always reliable, sexual abstinence is. If someone does not want to go through pregnancy, it would be wise not to have sex. Having children definitely shouldn't be taken lightly. It can take a huge financial, emotional, and physical toll on a woman as you stated. The amount of children in foster care and the hardships children experience is exactly why having children should be taken more seriously. However, it doesn't make sense to say "this child may experience bad things in the future so let's kill them now."
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I asked all of you when life begins. Maybe I was not clear. At what point do you think a child in the womb is a human? You seem to be saying that when it can feel pain it is a human. However, it is still wrong to kill someone even if they do not feel the pain of it. A child in the womb has a family, although sometimes they are killed by them. At a certain point, they are aware. They can't exactly make friends if they are inside someone so to use that as an argument doesn't really make sense. Studies have shown that children in the womb have short-term memories at 30 weeks of age. The definition of identity is "the fact of being who or what a person or thing is." Whether or not a child in the womb has an identity is a matter of opinion. It can't be used to prove one side of an argument. I know children can be treated badly, but that doesn't mean we should kill them. We should be trying to help these children not murder them.
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You believe it's a clump of cells, others believe that because it has it's own DNA it's a separate human. It's really shitty to assume the other side is lying about their beliefs.
That is just it, you can have that belief but you have no right to enforce that belief on another woman. If you don’t want an abortion then don’t have one, simple. But preventing others from having safe abortions should NEVER be a choice for you or anyone else to make, only the individual it affects and the medical professional. Not your uterus, not your body, not your choice.
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What about the unborn babies though?
What about it? If someone chooses to keep it then good for them and if someone chooses not too, then good for them also. We women are living and breathing human beings with feelings, friends, family, awareness and identity just to name a few. We are not a baby making factory line. If a woman wants an abortion she can still do it even if it is illegal, it is also extremely unsafe. Already roughly 22,000 women die annually from unsafe backyard abortions. Abortions will ALWAYS exist, it is just better to make it legal and have them done safely than risk the mothers life and deforming or seriously disabling the foetus instead of successfully aborting. Also consider this, forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy can have serious effects after birth. Whether it be resentment, neglect, and hate for the child. Or risking the high risk of abuse in the foster care/adoption system. There are already millions of children needing adoption, imagine adding millions more.
TheSneakyNinja Fetuses. Are. Not. The. Babies. Period. They've no feelings, no memories, no personality. Especially the very, very damaged ones, which wouldn't be able to live more than few hours or days after birth, the ones without lungs, brains, kidneys... well, the list can go on and on, but I hope you get it already. Anyway, risking woman's health, life and mental state only to 'save' a thing which will die anyway... Forcing woman to carry the fetus through weeks, knowing that it will die - sometimes it basically IS dead already - that's rather cruel don't you think?
Foxxy, you're fighting a windmill here. Pro-Life will never get that their point is pointless, because their point is not taken out of reality, but imagined all the way. It's the same with drugs - making them illegal just adds more damage, but no one wants to allow them. Everybody can know that most abortions are either involuntarily and necessary to make sure the woman (not "the mother") survives, or done in a stage as early that there literally is nothing that even could be bothered. Anyone is free to believe whatever they fell obliged to or want to or whyever - no one cares - and make their own decision on these beliefs, no one will ever mind you doing that, but pro-lifers must learn to accept the boundary that their own decisions are their own private issues and are not to be forced upon anyone else.
By the way, thank you all for responding. It's nice that you are willing to talk. :)
42b112d649...195e5c.jpg What do you think of this?
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As for outlawing abortion is only outlawing safe abortion, if someone murders someone else and harms or even kills themself in the process, that doesn't mean that we should make the wrong thing that they did legal. There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion kills children. There is nothing safe about that. Our "rights" should not hurt an innocent person. I know that a woman makes a huge sacrifice when she has a child. However, if she does not want the child she should not have created the child in the first place and that does not mean that because she does not want it that she now has a right to kill her child. It is no one's right to decide whether an innocent child lives or dies. Children do experience bad things sometimes. The answer to this is not to kill them in the womb though. They should be provided with love and care instead of being murdered. Enuya, I am not sure why you are saying that babies will die anyway or are basically dead. Could you please explain what you mean more? Thank you! The baby is growing in the womb from the moment it is conceived so I don't know why you are saying it's dead. Also, when do you all believe life begins? Thank you all for responding!
In Malta, which is also an EU member state, there is a total ban on abortion. No exceptions. Sad to see Poland going the same way.
Respect existence or expect resistance. I was horrified when I heard the announcement to stop legal abortion. They can't ever actually stop abortion, they will only make it more dangerous. It has nothing to do with men and thus should not be their choice, they have no say in this. Our bodies, our fight. Women are NOT baby generators, is it that hard of a concept for some people to grasp?
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What about the baby growing inside the woman's body? He or she is a tiny unique person who just needs time to grow and mature. I agree that women should be able to do what they want with their own body... but not with the body of the baby inside of her.
fetus is not a baby. it is a fetus. Would you rather have an unwanted child abused because of abortion rules or not have any of this happen
MY body, MY uterus, MY f****** choice! Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp?
The reason why it is hard to grasp is that while it is your uterus and your body, there is a separate innocent human baby inside of your body. You should not be able to decide whether or not that beautiful baby lives or dies. That is why people have a hard time understanding when others end the lives of babies in the womb and then say "it's my body my choice".
In the early stages of pregnancy the foetus is more like a parasite than a baby. It needs the woman to feed off and grow, and can’t survive outside the womb.
A newborn is different to a foetus, firstly the foetus cannot survive without the woman AT ALL. A newborn CAN and does survive with care from anyone whether it is a woman, a man or non-binary etc. Secondly a foetus is not a sentient being but a newborn is, thirdly a foetus is not a person but a newborn is, a foetus isn’t living and breathing but a newborn is. That is just a few differences. I personally believe that most abortions should be done within the first trimester but I also understand that can’t always be done then due to the unknown. Most women don’t know if the foetus has severe deformities/disabilities etc until around 20-22 weeks gestation and that is when late term abortions are done, or if the mothers life is at risk. Here are the rates of abortion per gestation (US statistics). Under 6weeks 34.5%, 7weeks 17.7%, 8weeks 13.4%, 9weeks 9.2%, 10weeks 5.6%, 11weeks 4.6%, 12weeks 3.4%, 13weeks 2.7, 14-15weeks 3.6%, 16-17 weeks 2.1%, 18-20weeks 1.9%, 21+weeks 1.2%.
Hello, Foxxy (The Orginal)! I'm sorry for not getting back to you earlier, I just saw this now. Yes, the child in the womb is dependant upon the mother. But a newborn is also dependant on others and will die if he or she is not cared for. I think that dependency does not justify the ending of a child's life. Also, do you have a certain point in fetal development when you think that abortion is wrong? If so, when is that point? One of my cousins was born prematurely right on the very edge of the age where a baby can survive outside of the womb (with intensive care). She is a healthy 1st grader now. So, when is it okay to end the baby's life in the womb?
Separate DNA that WILL turn into a human. You agree that at 9 months it's a human? What about 5? 2? Where is the exact cuttoff? Be specific. When exactly does it go from clump of cells to a separate person? If you murder a woman 3 weeks pregnant, should it never be called a double homicide? How can people say "Unborn child" yet when they want an abortion it's magically not a child anymore?
I believe that life begins at conception. As you said, the new person's DNA is already there. All the baby needs is time to develop and grow. I think it is sad that people do not view this new life as a person and use that excuse to end the lives of so many unborn babies. I think that a baby is a person from the moment of conception and that people should treat the child as a human.
I believe that once it is born it can survive outside the womb then it is a human. A foetus is a seperate person when it is born. If a woman is killed in most countries whilst 3 weeks pregnant it isn’t called a double homicide because a foetus is not considered a legal person. Unless the foetus is born and survives momentarily before succumbing to it’s injuries then yes that is double homicide. But if the foetus dies in utero then no. A foetus is considered viable from 24 weeks gestation and onwards, so when majority of abortions are done the foetus isn’t viable anyway.
Let me just say, at the end of the day, it is the woman's choice. Sure, she can talk to the father about it, but he cannot influence her decision. If she is not ready to have a child, then she doesn't have to have the child. She can choose to put it up for adoption if she wants to give birth, or she can decide to abort it. Never force a choice onto anyone, because forcing a woman to have children can lead to the woman and/or the child dying during birth. Hope you have a good day.
Poland law bans abortions in the case of fetal defects. Still allows them for rape, incest or danger to mother's life.
please.. doctors will wait with decision that pregnancy thretens women's life to the very last moment and in many cases it will be too late to save the mother's life
What Agnieszka said. Also, even if the fetus with heavy defects will survive - given economical and political situation in Poland right now many parents will not be able to raise these children. They will give them to foster care or even worse, abandon them in streets, dumps or even kill them. Also, women's mortality will increase because women will try to have an abortion at home, on their own, sometimes using very risky methods.
HelloJello a living a breathing person with birth defects is different to a foetus. The foetus is alive but it is not a living person. A living person has feelings (emotionally and physical), memories, awareness, an identity etc yet a foetus doesn’t. So there isn’t a comparison between aborting a foetus and killing a person. The thing is an unwanted pregnancy doesn’t just effect the potential child but effects others too. I could not cope with having another child and the idea fills me with great anxiety. If my contraception fails and I fall pregnant, I will be aborting no if or buts about it. I have to think about my living kids and my hubby and having another child will also be a huge negative for them also. A child is not temporary and effects lives DRASTICALLY. I could never put a child up for adoption because the rates of abuse in the care system is astronomical and I could never put a child in that situation, worrying why they aren’t wanted, going from home to home many never finding loving homes, many turning to crime, drugs and homelessness etc. There is estimated that there are between 143 million-210 million children needing adoption worldwide. Imagine adding at least 50 millions more children annually if no abortions were done. We don’t have enough resources for the children we already have let alone adding millions more to the mix. Over 14 million children age out of the system, never being adopted, having no family or home and 10-15% of children in care commit suicide before they turn 18.
So, you are saying that it is okay to end somebody's life because there is a possibility that, because of birth defects, they will be put might in foster care, or abandoned or killed anyway? So, once they are born it is wrong to kill children with birth defects, but in order to save them from being killed, you think it is okay to end their life while they are in the womb? I think that everyone who is born has the chance of something bad happening to them. I still think they should be allowed a chance to live their lives.
This is what you get, if you allow belivers of any god have right to be voted on, or vote. Its just a matter of time untill its f****d up like this.
No unborn child should ever be killed because of the mothers reckless actions. They didn't ask to be born and then only to be thrown away in a medical waste bin. By the looks of these women they are probably already used to having alot of abortions weekly now they are pissed because their government has finally put an end to it.
Seriously? the mothers reckless actions? How ignorant. It takes TWO to fall pregnant and the woman and the man can take precautions and STILL fall pregnant. The woman doesn’t always ask to be pregnant to only have yo suffer the rest of her life from following through with an unwanted pregnancy. I find it kind of ironic that most people on this post against abortions are male. Oh and FYI making abortions illegal will not end abortions, it will just make them more dangerous risking the womans life and severely damaging the foetus instead of successfully aborting, which can cause immense suffering once it is born.
I am neither a sir or lady, I am an adult woman. How am I a hypocrite, please explain?
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you are a hypocrite sir lady whatever you are. I've read your other posts
So sad that this site only does propaganda for the left...Not even a debate,not even allowed to have a different opinion or different world view.I am not talking about this one only,but other posts too...So this is the liberal and progressive mind set where everything is ok until something doesn't fit in your world views?Then you aren't that open minded anymore and turn into fascist
Actually it is sad that a decision was made by goverment without any attempts of discussion.. The situation was caused by lack of discussion and fact that people are affraid. With current decision most of the doctors would wait to the last moment to decide that pregnancy threats women's life. And in many cases it can be too late to save a women life. And doctors would affraid to decide because they didn't want to loose their jobs. This is the reason why protesters use so rude slogans. This is the only way to show the frustration and, unfortunatelly, this the only way to reach Polish politicians attention. There is a lot of catholic among protesters, older people- usually very conservative. But they protest because they think about their daughters and grandaughters, bexause they affraid that a pregnancy causing a health issue will put their family members in danger.
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No abortion for fetal defects. Still legal for rape, incest or danger to mother's life.
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So who is fighting for the unborn? This is still human life we are talking about
Bill, fetuses are not the babies. They have no feelings, emotions... they don't even know they are aborted, since - you guess what - they cannot yet feel pain. Moreover, situation in Poland right now isn't even about legal abortion in general but about abortion of fetuses with heavy defects, like the ones without brains, with heavy genetical ilnesses etc. Also, even if the fetus with heavy defects will survive - given economical and political situation in Poland right now many parents will not be able to raise these children. They will give them to foster care or even worse, abandon them in streets, dumps or even kill them. So believe me, nobody here is 'against the unborn', we are fighting for basic human rights for women, because we don't want to be forced to carry through weeks a fetus which we know has no chance to survice. It's arther cruel to force woman to give borth to something which will be already dead and she will never even see by her own eyes, don't you think?
TheSneakyNinja a foetus can’t feel pain until around 20weeks gestation. Majority of abortions are done within the first trimester and the ones done later are uncommon and is done if the mothers life is at risk or the foetus has some form of severe deformity/disability etc that will not give it quality of life. And often those things are known during the early stages of pregnancy. Here are the rates of abortion per gestation (US statistics). Under 6weeks 34.5%, 7weeks 17.7%, 8weeks 13.4%, 9weeks 9.2%, 10weeks 5.6%, 11weeks 4.6%, 12weeks 3.4%, 13weeks 2.7, 14-15weeks 3.6%, 16-17 weeks 2.1%, 18-20weeks 1.9%, 21+weeks 1.2%. After 20 weeks gestation the foetus is given anesthesia so it won’t feel pain when being aborted which is for medical reasons. Abortions after the first trimester are more regulated with tougher rules and mainly done if medically necessary.
Of course not, because they are living and breathing people with a legal identity. A living person is completely different to a foetus that has no viability outside of the womb. Seriously there is no comparison to a foetus and a living and breathing human. A person doesn’t need another persons body to grow it, nourish it etc. There is a difference between living and having a life.
Foxxy are you saying that it is okay to kill someone as long as they can't feel pain?
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42b112d649...5e5c-1.jpg At a certain point, they can feel pain.
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Thank you!
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Hello! I am fighting for the Unborn! It is sick and wrong that people can end the lives of precious babies.
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-(I had to edit my Comment to respond to some of yall) So Sorry for what I said, I thought of Abortion in a Different way, When DC explained, Know I understood. To the DownVotes, It was a Mistake TvT-
It was about protesting laws banning abortion in Poland.
Can't answer Mrs. Ackermann directly because of downvotes ... Poor Babies? Which Babies? This is about early-stage, too, when there simply is no such thing as a Baby. There are a bunch of cells, unconscious cells, that don't even have anything on them entitling them to any kind of consideration, let alone rights or something... No Babies were ever harmed in early-stage abortions ... just as usually no goats are harmed in it, because there are no goats around then, but any born goat is entitled to a lot more rights than a cluster of cells, be they human, be they fish, whatever...
So.. do you think that the ability to feel pain is when life begins? Is that when someone qualifies for human rights? Also, the exact point when a child in the womb can feel pain is still not completely known. This image is likely a more detailed representation of the development. Thank you for responding by the way. https://i.pinimg.com...f7c69dc6b44.jpg
Sorry about how people are giving you downvotes. You don't deserve those downvotes because you expressed your opinion in a respectful and nice way. Keep it up!
It, kind of, is, but I'm not sure what it shows is correct in its entirety. The CNS, though, is most relevant here, as any kind of feeling to be felt will either be felt there, or not at all. And ... this indicates, before week 20, there is little to nothing going on there ... indicating that a 20-week regulation, that allows it before said age without any special reason, is a good compromise taking everything into account as much as it requires to be taken into account. No one, for sure, would think one week before it's due it is anything of much difference to during actual birth... But something precious enough to qualify for human rights and stuff just doesn't come about in a few days!
DC you might find this interesting. 41d35754e9...f4c801.jpg
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I was appalled when I heard about this. The thing is no law will ever prevent abortions, it will just stop SAFE abortions. We women are humans not breeding machines and deserve to have the right over our own bodies. Men should not have a say in what we can do to our bodies and should not be able to have a vote on the matter. That is not their right.
EXACTLY. When you ban a safe medical procedure, you have women risking their lives and health with alternatives. It's 2020, those risks do not need to be taken.
THIS. Thank you for making that point. Women are never going to stop controlling our own bodies, so instead of trying to take the control away from us, make it so that we do it safely. If you can't give birth, you should stop telling us to do do.
I agree. People like the orange man in the white house think that us women are just baby generators and he thinks he can control us.
You are so right....and the men most responsible for pushing Polish politicians to take away women's rights are presumably celibate ......... the clergy. They might be reminded , regarding a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy that the official position of the church from medieval times to the mid 1800's was that of St. Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas . Aquinas said "The rational soul ought to be united to a body, which may be a suitable organ of sensation ......before the body has organs (can survive on its own), it cannot be receptive of the soul."
What do you mean by that? If sex is consensual and pregnancy is agreed upon by both parties then yes. if sex is consensual but pregnancy is not agreed upon then both parties need to keep in mind that zero contraception is 100% effective so there is a risk that the woman can still become pregnant. If they go through with sex knowing the risks then they also need to consider what will happen in that case, whether to go through with the pregnancy or whether to abort it or adopt it out. The man can have a say but in the end the decision is solely the females.
I agree with most of this, but ... it takes two to get pregnang ... a caring father, or father-to-be, one who really is engaged in it by all means possible ... shouldn't be out of the decision. On some kind of other, but not opposed hand ... the first few months this literally are just some cells - no one should be taking action in an imagined interest of cells! There's at least three months there is no other entity than the pregnant woman (and, in case he's of the abovementioned kind) to be taken into consideration - there is no "Baby" at that time! Pro-Life isn't pro any other life, let alone any actual life, so ... I feel like I'm obliged to agree you in being one from the other side, which I consider the right side here (pro choice). But ... a father of who really cares ... shouldn't be not-heard-from in case anything wrong with the fetus is the reason this comes up in the first place. The LAST word, anyway ... your body, your choice!
Of course the father should/can have an input but in the end the decision is the woman’s to make.
I can't answer an answer's answer here ... of course, a father who doesn't care, shouldn't be asked. I think this is clear... The pure medical reasons don't really consist of a choice. Making this illegal basically demands risking one's own life, and therefore, every decent country should have some superior law, a higher-ranking one, that garuantees freedom from any prosecution in these cases. Poland is in the EU; the EU has a court for human rights violations - maybe that's where this is to be taken ... to force the government to correct their shenenigans (they're kinda ... well, what to say, they suck at everything...).
He might just think unborn children are people though. But idk we can't know his thoughts.
Thinking of unborn children in the first place is a bit weird, misconception of words - children ALWAYS are born in one way or another. But, that aside, at least the first 20 or 30 weeks, there is no potential to even remotely and vague have any kind of feeling in a fetus. None, proven to not exist - at least this time, there is no reason to even take the fetus' interests (or whatever one thinks are their interest) into any account when having to make a decision. Also, that this decision often is described as hard, to me, seems a result of forcing guilt on those who had abortions, literally for no damage they ever did, literally forcing them to feel the guilt nevertheless. Whoever cares about a fetus should at least be a vegetarian, as any grown up animal (well, kind of) feels a lot more during slaughter than that cluster of mere cells in a human body does. If it weren't a sign of bad taste, one might even cook a soup of these without causing any real bad of any kind by any means.
Doesn’t matter, that may be his belief but that doesn’t give him (or anyone) the right to decide what a woman does to her body.
Finally! I was waiting for some kind of article about situation in Poland and I'm SO happy it was finally published! Let the world know what happened in our country!
Enuya I like in the UK and this is the first I have heard about it, so sad the BBC and other news outlets have not reported it. I stand with My Polish sisters.
Some countries are making giant steps into the past...Wehn I was born, in Germany a woman couldn't have her own bank account without the approuval of her husband... her husband could force her to quit her job when he thought that her work had a negative impact on the housekeeping...
It's so awful, sad, and unfair! 😣 Unthinkable in the 21st century. Every person should have a right to choose what to do with their own body!
TheSneakyNinja, Firstly a foetus is not a child, it is developing to become a child but is not a child/person. So an abortion is not killing a child or a person. Secondly you cannot compare the laws of someone killing a living and breathing person to a foetus. A living person has friends, family, personality, identity, memories and awareness. A foetus has none of those. Thirdly saying a women should not have created a child is extremely ignorant, the woman doesn’t just CHOOSE to fall pregnant and it happens, 1 in 100 pregnancies is the result of contraception failure. So people do take precautions, it’s just ZERO contraception is 100% effective. Lastly just because you say the child should be treated with love and care doesn’t mean it works, just look at the cases of neglect, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, parents murdering their children etc. Women being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term can cause resentment and hate towards the child which can lead to abuse.
(3) I would also like to say that you are entitled to your belief that abortions are wrong etc BUT you and everyone else have NO right to enforce that belief on another woman. If you don’t want an abortion then don’t have one, simple. But preventing others from having safe abortions should NEVER be a choice for you or anyone else to make, only the individual it affects and the medical professional. Not your uterus, not your body, not your choice.
(2) I know that if my mum was pregnant with me and she didn’t want me I would rather be aborted than live in care with the possibility of never having love, home or a family. If I was aborted I wouldn’t even care because I wouldn’t have a clue what was going on anyway. Regarding the twins, they are both human coz I have not said they aren’t human. BUT Amy was a person and sentient being 87 days before Kate was a person and sentient being. I don’t know where you got 100,000 of children needing adoption because that is incorrect. There is estimated that there are between 143 million-210 million children needing adoption worldwide. Imagine adding at least 50 millions more children annually if no abortions were done. We don’t have enough resources for the children we already have let alone adding millions more to the mix. Over 14 million children age out of the system, never being adopted, having no family or home and 10-15% of children in care commit suicide before they turn 18.
TheSneakyNinja, (1) you are contradicting yourself. You say you aren’t suggesting no one ever have sex again if they don’t want kids but also say that if you don’t want kids then don’t have sex. That is just ridiculous. Abortion doesn’t harm children because a foetus is not a child by definition. A child is a person from birth to teenager. Again I never said a foetus is not human, I said it is not a person, again different, look up the definition on that too. You also say you want children to be cared for after birth but just because you say that doesn’t mean it happens. In the ideal world EVERY child would be cared for but that is not always the case. Yes everyone has a risk of suffering in life, I don’t deny that but if every foetus was aborted in case of suffering then that is the end of human civilisation. The fact is there is not enough resources, families etc to deal with all the kids currently needing adoption without adding MILLIONS more.
You cannot alway CHOOSE to not get pregnant just like you can’t CHOOSE when you fall pregnant. As I have said countless times 1 in 100 pregnancies occur because of contraception failure. When a woman is raped they too don’t CHOOSE to fall pregnant. Sorry but I think I may have missed where I wrote a foetus isn’t human, I have said a foetus isn’t a person or a sentient being. Most of what I am saying is based on logic like adoption, abuse, abortion statistics, contraception failures, the reality of life for an unwanted child, the fact abortions will never stop, it will just be unsafe abortions and more. You are ignoring most of my points and mainly focussing on the foetus and not really showing any care for a child once it is born. You are not pro-life, you are pro-birth. As long as an unwanted child is born that is the main thing right? Who cares what happens to the child afterwards hey.
Abortions aren’t done at 30weeks gestation except in SUPER RARE situations where the womans or foetuses life is at risk. Just because a woman is pregnant doesn’t mean the woman is the family of the foetus, she is a vessel and is only family if the woman chooses. That is what I mean and makes perfect sense. Because that part of the brain is not developed when abortions are done that the foetus has no cognitive ability to understand. The difference between you and me is that I am looking at abortions from a logical and realistic stand point and you are looking at it from an emotional stand point.
Do you seriously think that abstinence is realistic, especially in a long term relationship. Sex is not just about procreation, it is also a way to bond with a partner. I am not going the next 20 years without sex with my husband just because I might fall pregnant. That is just ludicrous. I believe that once it is born it can survive outside the womb then it is a person. A foetus is a seperate person when it is born. For example, If a woman is killed in most countries whilst 3 weeks pregnant it isn’t called a double homicide because a foetus is not considered a legal person. Unless the foetus is born and survives momentarily before succumbing to it’s injuries then yes that is double homicide. But if the foetus dies in utero then no. A foetus is considered viable from 24 weeks gestation and onwards, so when majority of abortions are done the foetus isn’t viable anyway. Foetuses do not have memories, tell me do you or do you know ANYONE who remembers being inside a woman’s womb?
About the image you showed I don’t think anything of it, I have had kids so I know the process. Here are some truths you may not be aware of. A foetus has no pain receptors when it is aborted, it also has no awareness to know they are being aborted. When majority of abortions are done the foetus couldn’t survive outside the womb anyway. Are you aware of the mental, emotional, physical and financial toll having a baby brings? A large proportion of children are abused in foster/state care with so many kids ageing out of the system never having a loving home or any sort of family. The resources in the foster care system is stretched to the limits already and the major issues with adding millions more children to the system if no abortions were done is astronomical with a great deal of risk. Many children in care end up turning to crime, drugs and ending up homeless or in jail. There are millions of children who suffer/have suffered in the care system going from home to home with no love or stability. So many unwanted children are also bought up in poverty and with parents with severe drug problems, which can cause foetus drug/alcohol syndrome (look up the symptoms). The fact is you are not being realistic, raising a child isn’t all puppies and rainbows, it is hard work and can take it’s toll. I love my kids more than life itself but they are bloody hard work. Having kids shouldn’t be taken lightly.
In an ideal world women would get pregnant when they choose too but unfortunately that is not always the case. I a, on the most reliable contraception on the market (still not 100% effective) BUT the side effects are awful, I just deal with the side effects because the idea of me falling pregnant fills me with great anxiety. I have told my husband that if my contraception fails I WILL be getting an abortion. I have 2 kids with disabilities, I suffer severe mental health issues and chronic stress. I should not have the burden of following through with an unwanted pregnancy just because some people say so. Not your body, not your life, not your choice. If you don’t want an abortion then easy, don’t have one but you have no right to force your beliefs onto others, especially if you have no idea what the woman is going through. A child is not a temporary thing, a child doesn’t effect a woman or her family temporarily. Having a child changes life DRAMATICALLY and a woman’s body.
(4) I recently had a pregnancy scare even though I am on contraception. I was freaking out and because it was late at night when I realised all my symptoms pointed to pregnancy, it was too late to buy a pregnancy test. So I didn’t get much sleep that night. I kept running through my head what if I am too far along for the abortion medication? What if I can’t access an abortion etc? I then started running things through my mind on how I could give myself an abortion if I couldn’t get it done safely. I thought about stabbing myself in the stomach, buying some long knitting needles, purposefully falling down stairs, jumping in front of a car, getting someone to punch me as hard as possible in the abdomen etc. But then logic stepped in and I realised I live in a country where I have access to safe abortions so I don’t need to think about that stuff. But that just goes to show what someone will do out of desperation. You will NEVER stop abortions, EVER.
(3) How would you stop someone from having an abortion anyway, it’s not like the woman tells everyone that she is pregnant and going to have an abortion and even if you fought for abortions being illegal you STILL can’t stop a woman from having an abortion coz she will just 1. go to another country to get it done or 2. do an unsafe backyard abortion. This study from 2009 says around 62,000 women died from unsafe abortions which is one of the leading causes of maternal mortality (13%) and around 5 million suffer long-term health complications. According to WHO every 8 minutes a woman will die from an unsafe abortion. Some risks include severe hemorrhage, sepsis, poisoning, uterine perforation, or damage to other internal organs. It also increases the risk of incomplete abortions resulting in a deformed/significantly disabled baby. So making abortions legal and safe is vital, not just for the woman but for her loved ones and the foetus.
(2) Abortion is not killing a child because a child by definition is someone between the ages of birth and teenager. Check the definition yourself if you don’t believe me. You say abortion hurts people, but do you understand that pregnancy also hurts people? Why is an unborn foetus more important than me? Is my life so insignificant? Me being pregnant will not just hurt me but it would also hurt my living children, why is it okay to hurt living and breathing people but it’s not okay to abort a foetus that has no feelings or awareness? That is just bullshit and a bit sadistic. A moment that it takes for an abortion can prevent a lifetime of pain for the foetus (for many reasons), the woman and the people around her. You can’t call yourself pro-life because you don’t care about the life of others, only the unborn. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to stop someone from having an abortion, you have absolutely NO idea what that person is going through. It is none of your bloody business.
TheSneakyNinja (1) They are YOUR beliefs and you are entitled to them but you are not entitled to force them onto someone else. YOU may believe abortions are killing a child but that does not mean YOUR belief is the right one. I am not saying that people with the opposite belief is the right one coz it is just that-a belief. You do not have the right to take away a womans choice. And again you say a woman can prevent pregnancy well they can take preventions and still fall pregnant, what part of that do you not understand? Being abstinence forever is just not realistic. I feel like a broken record coz you are asking the same questions in which I have already given answers for. Standing up for the rights of a living and breathing child is completely different so I don’t understand why you keep bringing that up. I never said one is sentiment and one is not, I said sentient. Sentient means able to perceive or feel things, a foetus is NOT a sentient being but a child IS.
(4) Despite what you feel about possibly being pregnant, that does not make a difference in whether or not the child in the womb is a person. Feelings don't get to decide whether or not someone is human. Which is why I though we should discuss what makes a person a person. You have talked about consciousness, society's definitions, and birth so I am not exactly sure when you think the baby in the womb is a person. And it's true that I probably won't be able to stop all abortions from happening. After all, theft, rape, murder, arson, and assault all still happen despite there being laws against all of those things. However, there would likely be less abortions and at least society would be trying to stop them. Once again, whether or not people do something illegally does not decide whether or not what they are doing it wrong.
(3) I do not know why you keep using this argument. I will try to show you again why it does not make sense. Chicago had 492 murders in 2019. Obviously, murders are still happening despite the laws. Does that mean we should make murder legal? Of course not. The reason why this argument does not make any sense is that just because people disobey laws that does not mean we should do away with those laws. If you kill someone, (which is what abortion is) and you hurt yourself in the process, that does not mean we should make killing people legal. No doubt we should do something to help those people (which is exactly what the group of pro-life people I am with do-it's not offering abortion though) but that does not mean we should allow them to do terrible things.
(2) Definitions people in society have made are not always correct. You make not think so, but consider this: Homosexuality was defined as a mental illness for years. I know pregnancy hurts people. However, like I stated before, you don't have to choose to create a baby. I know you don't consider that realistic. However, you are acting like it is somehow impossible to not create a child. Other people's lives do matter of course. Just because I am fighting for children not to be killed does not mean I don't care about other people. You are acting like women have no other option than abortion to not have babies. And that isn't realistic, even if you dislike the other options. Once, again, I am doing things for other people. However, this conversation is about abortion and that is why I am talking about abortion. Consciousness is developing in the womb at the 24th and 28th weeks of gestation. Are you saying that consciousness determines person hood? Before you said birth does.
(1/2) Evidently you did not understand and thought it was an argument. Also, it is about five to six weeks that brain activity begins to occur. You said, "BUT Amy was a person and sentient being 87 days before Kate was a person and sentient being." You have to admit that this doesn't make sense. If you think it does, how does it make sense?
(1/2) I know you feel like this is forcing a belief on someone else. However, EVERY SINGLE LAW in America is technically forcing a belief on someone else. Making a law against murdering people is not wrong even if people disagree with it. Like I said before, I am only saying that it is an option for women to be abstinent to not have a child because you said: "Thirdly saying a women should not have created a child is extremely ignorant, the woman doesn’t just CHOOSE to fall pregnant and it happens, 1 in 100 pregnancies is the result of contraception failure." I was clarifying that she could also choose not to have sex because you said she could not CHOOSE to fall pregnant. Yes, she couldn't choose to FALL pregnant but then again she could have just chosen not have sex. It's not really an argument it's just pointing out that it is not impossible for women not to have children. I only brought up the example with the five-year-old to help you to understand why I am trying to stop abortion...
(3) Is also why I was trying to talk about when a child in the womb is a person or not. I thought we should talk about that since I think it is a person and you don't so we should try to understand each other about that and try to come to an agreement. Because according to my beliefs, even though abuse and bad fostor care and the mother's struggles exist that won't change the fact that abortion in it of itself is wrong as it is the killing of an innocent child. So that is why I think we should talk about that and at what point does the child in a womb becomes a person. Of course, if you don't want to you don't have to. But to get anywhere that is probably necessary. Thank you for talking btw. :)
(3) The thing is, abortion hurts people. It kills children. It is never safe. So of course I would try to stop it. I'll try to see if you can understand why I am doing this. Since you only consider children that are born to be people, if five-year-olds were being killed on a daily basis by their parents, wouldn't you try to stop it? Even if they were in abusive homes or in foster care? Wouldn't you be trying to stop that or would you just let it happen? That is what this is like to (most) pro-life people. Of course, there are a few who just want to control women's bodies. But the reason why I am fighting against abortion is that I do not think anyone should choose if an innocent child lives or dies according to their preference.
(2) I meant person and sorry about the confusion. Why is one sentiment and why was the other not? That doesn't make sense. They were in the same stages of development. And as I explained before, that statistic was for one country regarding a certain group. I should not have been so specific. Once again, when you talk about how resources are limited, that doesn't mean that abortion is okay. It's a problem, to be sure, but it does not justify the killing of children.
I was talking about the children waiting for adoption in the U.S. in foster care. Sorry about the confusion. In response to (1), I said that because you talked about how women get pregnant sometimes because of failed contraception. I was just pointing out that they still could have avoided getting pregnant. I think you are saying that the child in the womb isn't a child because that's the definition that many countries have set right now. Sorry that I used human instead of person. I don't always say things the right way but I think you know what I meant. I know that just saying something doesn't mean it happens. I guess that what I am trying to say is that while abuse and other stuff happen, it does not make abortion right. Even though a child might experience terrible things, that doesn't make killing them right. Because something bad might happen to someone, that doesn't make doing something else bad to them okay. Do you understand what I mean?
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I also think you did not respond to this: "You say that you are looking at this from a logical standpoint. How is it logical to say that a child in the womb is only human once it is born? Twins Amy and Kate Elliot were born 87 days apart. Amy was born prematurely on June 1, 2012, and Kate followed on August 27. According to your logic, one was a human 87 days before the other. Also, why does dependency determine humanity? After all, a baby can't even survive by itself outside the womb."
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Also, ANYONE who is born has a chance of being harmed sometime in the future. That isn't a reason to kill them. 1 out of 5 women have experienced completed or attempted rape. Does that mean we should kill all women because we could potentially be raped sometime in the future? No. We should build a society where that is unacceptable and punish any offenders. If something bad might happen to someone that does not mean you can kill them.
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My issue with abortion is that I think the child is human and deserves rights. The question is, do they deserve the same rights, and why? That is why I am trying to focus on the child. I think it is a person at conception. The DNA and all the genetic information that makes them human is there at that moment and from that point forward they are growing and developing. Abuse is terrible and the foster system isn't doing too well either. It saddens me that not only do we have those issues but that we also have to deal with the killing of thousands of unborn children. 100,000 children in foster care are currently waiting for adoption, 678,000 children were abused in 2018, and thousands of abortions are performed every year. Each of these issues is important. We should be trying to stop all of them. I don't think that a child being born is the only thing that matters.
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Uh... I actually said that I wanted children to be cared for after birth and stuff like that. I think that is what people should be focusing on, not trying to kill them. My family actually does that as we sponsor several children. We can't adopt or foster though since our family has a lot of kids in it. Abortion is just one of the things in this world that causes harm to children. Rape is a terrible thing, no doubt. However, it is not the cause of most abortions and is in fact the reason for 1% of them. It doesn't make sense for you to use that argument as you believe that abortion is okay in any circumstances. Unless you are arguing that abortion is only fine in cases of rape. 1 in 100 pregnancies are caused by contraception failures. However, I don't consider that grounds to kill a child as the parents could have just chosen not to have sex in the first place. Also, it isn't the child's fault that they were created.
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I'm not saying that someone has to be abstinent for a relationship for the rest of their lives. I am only saying that you can choose to not get pregnant. I also said short-term memory. The laws that don't count killing a pregnant mother as a double homicide can't be used as an argument since laws aren't always right. You say that you are looking at this from a logical standpoint. How is it logical to say that a child in the womb is only human once it is born? Twins Amy and Kate Elliot were born 87 days apart. Amy was born prematurely on June 1, 2012, and Kate followed on August 27. According to your logic, one was a human 87 days before the other. Also, why does dependency determine humanity? After all, a baby can't even survive by itself outside the womb.
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I know that having a child is a huge sacrifice. Kids are a lot of work. The truth is, we women can choose not to have sex in the first place. Even if contraception is not always reliable, sexual abstinence is. If someone does not want to go through pregnancy, it would be wise not to have sex. Having children definitely shouldn't be taken lightly. It can take a huge financial, emotional, and physical toll on a woman as you stated. The amount of children in foster care and the hardships children experience is exactly why having children should be taken more seriously. However, it doesn't make sense to say "this child may experience bad things in the future so let's kill them now."
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I asked all of you when life begins. Maybe I was not clear. At what point do you think a child in the womb is a human? You seem to be saying that when it can feel pain it is a human. However, it is still wrong to kill someone even if they do not feel the pain of it. A child in the womb has a family, although sometimes they are killed by them. At a certain point, they are aware. They can't exactly make friends if they are inside someone so to use that as an argument doesn't really make sense. Studies have shown that children in the womb have short-term memories at 30 weeks of age. The definition of identity is "the fact of being who or what a person or thing is." Whether or not a child in the womb has an identity is a matter of opinion. It can't be used to prove one side of an argument. I know children can be treated badly, but that doesn't mean we should kill them. We should be trying to help these children not murder them.
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You believe it's a clump of cells, others believe that because it has it's own DNA it's a separate human. It's really shitty to assume the other side is lying about their beliefs.
That is just it, you can have that belief but you have no right to enforce that belief on another woman. If you don’t want an abortion then don’t have one, simple. But preventing others from having safe abortions should NEVER be a choice for you or anyone else to make, only the individual it affects and the medical professional. Not your uterus, not your body, not your choice.
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What about the unborn babies though?
What about it? If someone chooses to keep it then good for them and if someone chooses not too, then good for them also. We women are living and breathing human beings with feelings, friends, family, awareness and identity just to name a few. We are not a baby making factory line. If a woman wants an abortion she can still do it even if it is illegal, it is also extremely unsafe. Already roughly 22,000 women die annually from unsafe backyard abortions. Abortions will ALWAYS exist, it is just better to make it legal and have them done safely than risk the mothers life and deforming or seriously disabling the foetus instead of successfully aborting. Also consider this, forcing a woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy can have serious effects after birth. Whether it be resentment, neglect, and hate for the child. Or risking the high risk of abuse in the foster care/adoption system. There are already millions of children needing adoption, imagine adding millions more.
TheSneakyNinja Fetuses. Are. Not. The. Babies. Period. They've no feelings, no memories, no personality. Especially the very, very damaged ones, which wouldn't be able to live more than few hours or days after birth, the ones without lungs, brains, kidneys... well, the list can go on and on, but I hope you get it already. Anyway, risking woman's health, life and mental state only to 'save' a thing which will die anyway... Forcing woman to carry the fetus through weeks, knowing that it will die - sometimes it basically IS dead already - that's rather cruel don't you think?
Foxxy, you're fighting a windmill here. Pro-Life will never get that their point is pointless, because their point is not taken out of reality, but imagined all the way. It's the same with drugs - making them illegal just adds more damage, but no one wants to allow them. Everybody can know that most abortions are either involuntarily and necessary to make sure the woman (not "the mother") survives, or done in a stage as early that there literally is nothing that even could be bothered. Anyone is free to believe whatever they fell obliged to or want to or whyever - no one cares - and make their own decision on these beliefs, no one will ever mind you doing that, but pro-lifers must learn to accept the boundary that their own decisions are their own private issues and are not to be forced upon anyone else.
By the way, thank you all for responding. It's nice that you are willing to talk. :)
42b112d649...195e5c.jpg What do you think of this?
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As for outlawing abortion is only outlawing safe abortion, if someone murders someone else and harms or even kills themself in the process, that doesn't mean that we should make the wrong thing that they did legal. There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion kills children. There is nothing safe about that. Our "rights" should not hurt an innocent person. I know that a woman makes a huge sacrifice when she has a child. However, if she does not want the child she should not have created the child in the first place and that does not mean that because she does not want it that she now has a right to kill her child. It is no one's right to decide whether an innocent child lives or dies. Children do experience bad things sometimes. The answer to this is not to kill them in the womb though. They should be provided with love and care instead of being murdered. Enuya, I am not sure why you are saying that babies will die anyway or are basically dead. Could you please explain what you mean more? Thank you! The baby is growing in the womb from the moment it is conceived so I don't know why you are saying it's dead. Also, when do you all believe life begins? Thank you all for responding!
In Malta, which is also an EU member state, there is a total ban on abortion. No exceptions. Sad to see Poland going the same way.
Respect existence or expect resistance. I was horrified when I heard the announcement to stop legal abortion. They can't ever actually stop abortion, they will only make it more dangerous. It has nothing to do with men and thus should not be their choice, they have no say in this. Our bodies, our fight. Women are NOT baby generators, is it that hard of a concept for some people to grasp?
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What about the baby growing inside the woman's body? He or she is a tiny unique person who just needs time to grow and mature. I agree that women should be able to do what they want with their own body... but not with the body of the baby inside of her.
fetus is not a baby. it is a fetus. Would you rather have an unwanted child abused because of abortion rules or not have any of this happen
MY body, MY uterus, MY f****** choice! Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp?
The reason why it is hard to grasp is that while it is your uterus and your body, there is a separate innocent human baby inside of your body. You should not be able to decide whether or not that beautiful baby lives or dies. That is why people have a hard time understanding when others end the lives of babies in the womb and then say "it's my body my choice".
In the early stages of pregnancy the foetus is more like a parasite than a baby. It needs the woman to feed off and grow, and can’t survive outside the womb.
A newborn is different to a foetus, firstly the foetus cannot survive without the woman AT ALL. A newborn CAN and does survive with care from anyone whether it is a woman, a man or non-binary etc. Secondly a foetus is not a sentient being but a newborn is, thirdly a foetus is not a person but a newborn is, a foetus isn’t living and breathing but a newborn is. That is just a few differences. I personally believe that most abortions should be done within the first trimester but I also understand that can’t always be done then due to the unknown. Most women don’t know if the foetus has severe deformities/disabilities etc until around 20-22 weeks gestation and that is when late term abortions are done, or if the mothers life is at risk. Here are the rates of abortion per gestation (US statistics). Under 6weeks 34.5%, 7weeks 17.7%, 8weeks 13.4%, 9weeks 9.2%, 10weeks 5.6%, 11weeks 4.6%, 12weeks 3.4%, 13weeks 2.7, 14-15weeks 3.6%, 16-17 weeks 2.1%, 18-20weeks 1.9%, 21+weeks 1.2%.
Hello, Foxxy (The Orginal)! I'm sorry for not getting back to you earlier, I just saw this now. Yes, the child in the womb is dependant upon the mother. But a newborn is also dependant on others and will die if he or she is not cared for. I think that dependency does not justify the ending of a child's life. Also, do you have a certain point in fetal development when you think that abortion is wrong? If so, when is that point? One of my cousins was born prematurely right on the very edge of the age where a baby can survive outside of the womb (with intensive care). She is a healthy 1st grader now. So, when is it okay to end the baby's life in the womb?
Separate DNA that WILL turn into a human. You agree that at 9 months it's a human? What about 5? 2? Where is the exact cuttoff? Be specific. When exactly does it go from clump of cells to a separate person? If you murder a woman 3 weeks pregnant, should it never be called a double homicide? How can people say "Unborn child" yet when they want an abortion it's magically not a child anymore?
I believe that life begins at conception. As you said, the new person's DNA is already there. All the baby needs is time to develop and grow. I think it is sad that people do not view this new life as a person and use that excuse to end the lives of so many unborn babies. I think that a baby is a person from the moment of conception and that people should treat the child as a human.
I believe that once it is born it can survive outside the womb then it is a human. A foetus is a seperate person when it is born. If a woman is killed in most countries whilst 3 weeks pregnant it isn’t called a double homicide because a foetus is not considered a legal person. Unless the foetus is born and survives momentarily before succumbing to it’s injuries then yes that is double homicide. But if the foetus dies in utero then no. A foetus is considered viable from 24 weeks gestation and onwards, so when majority of abortions are done the foetus isn’t viable anyway.
Let me just say, at the end of the day, it is the woman's choice. Sure, she can talk to the father about it, but he cannot influence her decision. If she is not ready to have a child, then she doesn't have to have the child. She can choose to put it up for adoption if she wants to give birth, or she can decide to abort it. Never force a choice onto anyone, because forcing a woman to have children can lead to the woman and/or the child dying during birth. Hope you have a good day.
Poland law bans abortions in the case of fetal defects. Still allows them for rape, incest or danger to mother's life.
please.. doctors will wait with decision that pregnancy thretens women's life to the very last moment and in many cases it will be too late to save the mother's life
What Agnieszka said. Also, even if the fetus with heavy defects will survive - given economical and political situation in Poland right now many parents will not be able to raise these children. They will give them to foster care or even worse, abandon them in streets, dumps or even kill them. Also, women's mortality will increase because women will try to have an abortion at home, on their own, sometimes using very risky methods.
HelloJello a living a breathing person with birth defects is different to a foetus. The foetus is alive but it is not a living person. A living person has feelings (emotionally and physical), memories, awareness, an identity etc yet a foetus doesn’t. So there isn’t a comparison between aborting a foetus and killing a person. The thing is an unwanted pregnancy doesn’t just effect the potential child but effects others too. I could not cope with having another child and the idea fills me with great anxiety. If my contraception fails and I fall pregnant, I will be aborting no if or buts about it. I have to think about my living kids and my hubby and having another child will also be a huge negative for them also. A child is not temporary and effects lives DRASTICALLY. I could never put a child up for adoption because the rates of abuse in the care system is astronomical and I could never put a child in that situation, worrying why they aren’t wanted, going from home to home many never finding loving homes, many turning to crime, drugs and homelessness etc. There is estimated that there are between 143 million-210 million children needing adoption worldwide. Imagine adding at least 50 millions more children annually if no abortions were done. We don’t have enough resources for the children we already have let alone adding millions more to the mix. Over 14 million children age out of the system, never being adopted, having no family or home and 10-15% of children in care commit suicide before they turn 18.
So, you are saying that it is okay to end somebody's life because there is a possibility that, because of birth defects, they will be put might in foster care, or abandoned or killed anyway? So, once they are born it is wrong to kill children with birth defects, but in order to save them from being killed, you think it is okay to end their life while they are in the womb? I think that everyone who is born has the chance of something bad happening to them. I still think they should be allowed a chance to live their lives.
This is what you get, if you allow belivers of any god have right to be voted on, or vote. Its just a matter of time untill its f****d up like this.
No unborn child should ever be killed because of the mothers reckless actions. They didn't ask to be born and then only to be thrown away in a medical waste bin. By the looks of these women they are probably already used to having alot of abortions weekly now they are pissed because their government has finally put an end to it.
Seriously? the mothers reckless actions? How ignorant. It takes TWO to fall pregnant and the woman and the man can take precautions and STILL fall pregnant. The woman doesn’t always ask to be pregnant to only have yo suffer the rest of her life from following through with an unwanted pregnancy. I find it kind of ironic that most people on this post against abortions are male. Oh and FYI making abortions illegal will not end abortions, it will just make them more dangerous risking the womans life and severely damaging the foetus instead of successfully aborting, which can cause immense suffering once it is born.
I am neither a sir or lady, I am an adult woman. How am I a hypocrite, please explain?
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you are a hypocrite sir lady whatever you are. I've read your other posts
So sad that this site only does propaganda for the left...Not even a debate,not even allowed to have a different opinion or different world view.I am not talking about this one only,but other posts too...So this is the liberal and progressive mind set where everything is ok until something doesn't fit in your world views?Then you aren't that open minded anymore and turn into fascist
Actually it is sad that a decision was made by goverment without any attempts of discussion.. The situation was caused by lack of discussion and fact that people are affraid. With current decision most of the doctors would wait to the last moment to decide that pregnancy threats women's life. And in many cases it can be too late to save a women life. And doctors would affraid to decide because they didn't want to loose their jobs. This is the reason why protesters use so rude slogans. This is the only way to show the frustration and, unfortunatelly, this the only way to reach Polish politicians attention. There is a lot of catholic among protesters, older people- usually very conservative. But they protest because they think about their daughters and grandaughters, bexause they affraid that a pregnancy causing a health issue will put their family members in danger.
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No abortion for fetal defects. Still legal for rape, incest or danger to mother's life.
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So who is fighting for the unborn? This is still human life we are talking about
Bill, fetuses are not the babies. They have no feelings, emotions... they don't even know they are aborted, since - you guess what - they cannot yet feel pain. Moreover, situation in Poland right now isn't even about legal abortion in general but about abortion of fetuses with heavy defects, like the ones without brains, with heavy genetical ilnesses etc. Also, even if the fetus with heavy defects will survive - given economical and political situation in Poland right now many parents will not be able to raise these children. They will give them to foster care or even worse, abandon them in streets, dumps or even kill them. So believe me, nobody here is 'against the unborn', we are fighting for basic human rights for women, because we don't want to be forced to carry through weeks a fetus which we know has no chance to survice. It's arther cruel to force woman to give borth to something which will be already dead and she will never even see by her own eyes, don't you think?
TheSneakyNinja a foetus can’t feel pain until around 20weeks gestation. Majority of abortions are done within the first trimester and the ones done later are uncommon and is done if the mothers life is at risk or the foetus has some form of severe deformity/disability etc that will not give it quality of life. And often those things are known during the early stages of pregnancy. Here are the rates of abortion per gestation (US statistics). Under 6weeks 34.5%, 7weeks 17.7%, 8weeks 13.4%, 9weeks 9.2%, 10weeks 5.6%, 11weeks 4.6%, 12weeks 3.4%, 13weeks 2.7, 14-15weeks 3.6%, 16-17 weeks 2.1%, 18-20weeks 1.9%, 21+weeks 1.2%. After 20 weeks gestation the foetus is given anesthesia so it won’t feel pain when being aborted which is for medical reasons. Abortions after the first trimester are more regulated with tougher rules and mainly done if medically necessary.
Of course not, because they are living and breathing people with a legal identity. A living person is completely different to a foetus that has no viability outside of the womb. Seriously there is no comparison to a foetus and a living and breathing human. A person doesn’t need another persons body to grow it, nourish it etc. There is a difference between living and having a life.
Foxxy are you saying that it is okay to kill someone as long as they can't feel pain?
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42b112d649...5e5c-1.jpg At a certain point, they can feel pain.
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Thank you!
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Hello! I am fighting for the Unborn! It is sick and wrong that people can end the lives of precious babies.
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-(I had to edit my Comment to respond to some of yall) So Sorry for what I said, I thought of Abortion in a Different way, When DC explained, Know I understood. To the DownVotes, It was a Mistake TvT-
It was about protesting laws banning abortion in Poland.
Can't answer Mrs. Ackermann directly because of downvotes ... Poor Babies? Which Babies? This is about early-stage, too, when there simply is no such thing as a Baby. There are a bunch of cells, unconscious cells, that don't even have anything on them entitling them to any kind of consideration, let alone rights or something... No Babies were ever harmed in early-stage abortions ... just as usually no goats are harmed in it, because there are no goats around then, but any born goat is entitled to a lot more rights than a cluster of cells, be they human, be they fish, whatever...
So.. do you think that the ability to feel pain is when life begins? Is that when someone qualifies for human rights? Also, the exact point when a child in the womb can feel pain is still not completely known. This image is likely a more detailed representation of the development. Thank you for responding by the way. https://i.pinimg.com...f7c69dc6b44.jpg
Sorry about how people are giving you downvotes. You don't deserve those downvotes because you expressed your opinion in a respectful and nice way. Keep it up!
It, kind of, is, but I'm not sure what it shows is correct in its entirety. The CNS, though, is most relevant here, as any kind of feeling to be felt will either be felt there, or not at all. And ... this indicates, before week 20, there is little to nothing going on there ... indicating that a 20-week regulation, that allows it before said age without any special reason, is a good compromise taking everything into account as much as it requires to be taken into account. No one, for sure, would think one week before it's due it is anything of much difference to during actual birth... But something precious enough to qualify for human rights and stuff just doesn't come about in a few days!
DC you might find this interesting. 41d35754e9...f4c801.jpg
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